It dawned on me not too long ago that my mother worships the Organization. So this post really caught my eye. Not too long ago she said that if this organization is wrong then there is no God. She also stated "Where would I go?" obviously referring to a scripture. (John 6:68) What the scripture really states is: What Peter said to Jesus was "Lord" whom shall we go to? She also mentioned about light getting brighter. What they believed 20 or 30 years ago might not be true anymore and so I asked what the organization believes today, they might not believe in 20 or 30 years from now?. Maybe one day the light will get brighter and they might realize that the "Christian Church" was right all along? (I doubt it). For an organization that, what my mother believes is the sole channel of communication through which God speaks, they sure made a lot of mistakes. Does God make mistakes or change His mind? I don't believe so. The excuse that the people are only human and that the light is getting brighter just doesn't sit right with me. When a prophet speaks in the name of God (which they did) and it doesn't come true, that is a False Prophet. It doesn't say if the person or organization prophesies in the name of God and it doesn't come true and they acknowledge that they were wrong, then that isn't a False Prophet. My mother says the organization is very honest because they admitted when they were wrong.
Heathen made a good point about the "Truth" Obviously the organization's truth 50 years ago, 25 years ago, last year, 1 year from now, 25 years from now etc is ever changing. I believe in an Absolute Truth-unchanging truth. I do believe that on a personal level we start to see things more clearly but truth itself doesn't change as with this organization.
As you can see I am frustrated. I have tried to stay calm with my mother but a week ago it became very difficult and told her that I had no problem with the people but that the Governing Body would pay dearly for deceiving their people. I know that I said too much. I can't change her mind and I have to accept that.
Watchtower "Worship"
by Sunspot 38 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Guest with Questions
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Slick Willie
Right on, Sunspot! I often myself wondered where exactly was the worship at the hall.
When I was studying to be a JW back in 1975 I studied with a Pioneer who's father was the PO. My girlfriend studied with a sister who was also a Pioneer. Being new, I read the Bible a lot especially the New Testament. After a meeting one night I was telling this Pioneer sister how I was reading the Gospels and how profound I found much of what Jesus said. My heart was overflowing with joy, thankfulness, and reverence to God after having spent so much time reading Christ's own words. How did this "spiritual" Pioneer sister react? She got a very stony look on her face and said (in a very hard tone) 'That's funny because I don't ever feel religious!' Then she stalked away from me! I really felt like I had made a major faux pas there (and of course now I realize I did!) This was one of my moments of cognizant dissonance that started to make me feel uncomfortable even before I was baptized.
Years later I realized that the annual memorial of Christ's death where 99.99% of the attendees reject the bread and wine was actually an ignorant rejection of Christ's sacrifice. Truly the WTS's two classes teaching is designed to seperate people from Christ and if I was a literalist or fundamentalist Christian I would even say these are "doctrines of demons."
Two days after my baptism at the district assembly (1975, Bayfront Center, St. Petersburg, FL) I listened to the "public talk" where the speaker (probably some a-hole from Bethel) proceeded to castigate the Catholic clergy even going so far as to call them "swine." I then watched as hordes of people streamed out of the arena, apparently as much turned off by this man's rant as I was! I sat there and thought to myself "Oh Oh, I think maybe I've made a mistake here." But I successfully suppressed these and many other experiences that told me there was something truly unchristian about this organization.
After several years of Catholic bashing at the KH I came to the conclusion that the WTS has a major case of "Catholicism envy"!
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startingover
Good thread!
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heathen
I can't say I have a problem with mistakes being made because that is unavoidable . False prophets were abundant in the first century as well but I do think this organization lacks the humility to apologize to their followers for enforcing their mistakes thru shunning and bad treatment . Well just glad I didn't have to live thru it however I did get a taste of it when I challenged their beliefs but since I wasn't a member at the time I could leave with very little repercussions .
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Sunspot
Ingenous said;
***"This bothered me a great deal for the years preceding my departure from the Org. Each time it came up, I'd put it "on the shelf." I tried not to think about the fact that we didn't really "worship" at the Hall, no matter what the FDS said about meeting attendence."How many "things" occurred to all of us that we shelved? I seem to hear this wherever I go.
***"Even the songs - they were mostly miniature public talks with very few qualifying as praise to God or Christ. I was never sure how to worship since the meetings were either about 1) bringing more people in, 2) what's wrong with you and the rest of the congregation, 3) the same items repeated ad nauseum. Most JWs probably look down on others' worship because they have no idea what it means, feels like, or looks like to worship."
LOL---you're right about those hideous "songs"! .....And you're right about the purposes for the "meetings for worship"! I only recently had put these thoughts together myself as I was replying to a staunch JW defender on another forum, about the "worship" of Christ, and as I began to list some stuff---I saw that we as JWs---did not worship much of ANYTHING--- except the WTS! (I'll leave THAT topic for another time.)
Gary said;
***"Jehovah's Witnesses I know tell me "to worship God means to DO his will (work)".
Yeah...I hear this a lot too. Somehow I feel that worship encompasses a LOT more than learning how to more successfully place WTS literature, and being slaves to a group of misinforming, admittedly uneducated, and self-aggrandized old men who make biblically unprovable claims.
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XJW4EVR
Sunspot,
I agree with your statements wholeheartedly. I believe that there is no "worship" within the JWs. The meetings are either indoctrination sessions (Public Talk, WT Study & Cong. Book Study) or sales meetings (TMS & Service Meeting). The reason is simple. The JWs view field service as their "worship.
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Sunspot
Leolaia quoted this;
*** w66 6/1 p. 333 par. 16 God’s Service—A Cause for Joy ***
"Audible expressions of joy that come naturally from a happy heart because of something fine that has taken place in connection with Jehovah’s worship or purposes are not the same as the emotional outbursts by persons in a religious fervor. Their nonsensical shouting and wild singing are not the fruitage of God’s spirit, which, among other things, produces mildness and self-control. It is not the "apparel of the quiet and mild spirit" that a servant of God is expected to wear, but, rather, the expression of wild, uncontrolled emotions that demons find easy to manipulate. (1 Pet. 3:4) On the contrary, the audible expression of joy coming from the happy heart of God’s servants is with their power of reason and is under their control."
"Audible expressions of joy"? WHEN does any JW ever hear one in a KH---except when they are talking about (touting) the "joy" of Pioneering when at an assembly?!
We NEVER hear of the joy IN Christ...or the joy OF Christ---who they will swear up and down and insist--- IS their "leader"! (yup-yup-yup!)
***"It is not the "apparel of the quiet and mild spirit" that a servant of God is expected to wear, but, rather, the expression of wild, uncontrolled emotions that demons find easy to manipulate."
How many of us have sat at an assembly/convention/whatever, where after a boring speech---the speaker will then bid for applause (and GET it) by practically shouting, "AREN'T YOU PROUD TO BE ONE OF JEHOVAH'S PEOPLE?"......so where is the quiet and mild spirit THEN, WTS?
They don't, of course, recognize that they are being whipped into a frenzy most often JUST BEFORE the "new release" is being loosed on them....one THEY are dutifully EXPECTED TO deliver to their "neighbors"....after they have come from the WTS Seasonal Pep Rally!
***"the expression of wild, uncontrolled emotions that demons find easy to manipulate."
Any "demons" in the house---are all from the WTS end of things....who have made it easy to manipulate their duped followers.
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architect
Wait now! if it comes from the WTBS its coming from Jehovah! case close. That is what all is taught.
Jehovah is dealing with imperfect men and so things could be given to us by mistake.
If something is a mistake than "Jehovah corrects it" .
this is what my Moms (30 faithful years in the truth) told me yesterday when I qusetioned the WTBS.
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anewme
Sunspot, you are HOT today!!!
Good discussion!
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Sunspot
Guest said;
***"She also mentioned about light getting brighter. What they believed 20 or 30 years ago might not be true anymore and so I asked what the organization believes today, they might not believe in 20 or 30 years from now?. Maybe one day the light will get brighter and they might realize that the "Christian Church" was right all along? (I doubt it)."
Yeah...I doubt this too. But when these "truths" become evident---that the WTS hasn't a clue as to what they are teaching...sometimes these pile up to the point where the JW becomes disillusioned with what the "WATCHTOWER SEZ", and the doubt begins to creep in. HEY---if it can happen to ME (as one who used to defend the WTS) it can happen to anyone!
The Org is digging its own grave with its own big mouth, the internet....and the "embarrassing old literature: that has been brought to (brilliant) light for everyone with a computer to see! (Thanks to QUOTES who dug the very first grave for the WTS to drop into )
***"For an organization that, what my mother believes is the sole channel of communication through which God speaks, they sure made a lot of mistakes. Does God make mistakes or change His mind? I don't believe so. "
No....and the "angels" that are supposedly delivering the messages to the GB/FDS (or Whoever is on call that day)....they are not speaking clearly enough so the old guys can HEAR them!
The chances of their getting these "messages from heaven" even remotely correct....are slim and none.
"Jehovah" must be tearing his hair out by now.