Hi all, I have just joined this site after having been visiting as a guest for a few months. I am searching for answers so please be patient with me. A friend of mine in the Congregation has directed me to this site as he has been having doubts about the Organization, though he said he never posts on it. Despite expecting to find nothing of any interest, I've been amazed at some of the things I've read and the fact that this might not actually be 'The Truth.' Whilst I'm not going to deny that there are obvious problems within the Organization, there is, however, one thing I'm having problem understanding, how could people become anointed ones without the holy spirit and Jehovah on the side of the Organization? There's an anointed one in my Congregation, he's been a special pioneer for many years and is the PO of the Congregation. He only became an anointed one a few years ago when an older anointed one in a nearby Congregation became unfaithful. Whilst I understand that you don't need to be from the same area as a former anointed one to replace the anointed one, the fact that it seemed an almost instant change made me think there was a link here, and that this was evidence of Jehovah making sure there would be that an exact 144,000 number of people in heaven. I witnessed first hand the change in this brother's outlook on life once he became 'anointed.' I'd had many conversations before this with him about the paradise, and he was always very excited about the prospect, but after this he had no interest in going to the paradise, and instantly looked forward to a time when he would rule as a king in heaven. As most of you will know, 'The Society' teaches that you are only anointed if you know you are beyond all certainty. The fact that basically all the anointed ones (except the obviously mentally unbalanced ones) have clearly dedicated many, many years to Jehovah, shows they have a real love for Jehovah. I can't believe it's a coincidence that 8000+ people who have dedicated their lives to Jehovah will today be able to believe beyond all certainty that they are anointed. To me it shows that whilst there may be issues with the Organization that need improvement, it still has Jehovah's approval, and it must therefore be the closest religion to having the Truth, even if it does get things wrong sometimes. I would be interested in hearing everyone's thoughts, and I'm willing to listen to everyone. As I said, I'm searching for answers. Thanks.
Question about the Anointed
by Zico 41 Replies latest jw friends
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minimus
I think scripturally speaking that 144,000 is a figurative number. If you read the context of Rev. all numbers are figurative. Only JWs say otherwise when it comes to the 144k. There's no real evidence that this man is a replacement. It's his word, his feeling. Jehovah didn't tap you on the shoulder and tell you anything. You're simply surmising as you have no proof but what you percieve.......BTW< WELCOME!!!
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serendipity
Hi Zico,
Welcome to the forum!
There's an anointed one in my Congregation, he's been a special pioneer for many years and is the PO of the Congregation. He only became an anointed one a few years ago when an older anointed one in a nearby Congregation became unfaithful. Whilst I understand that you don't need to be from the same area as a former anointed one to replace the anointed one, the fact that it seemed an almost instant change made me think there was a link here,
The PO is an opportunist?
but after this he had no interest in going to the paradise, and instantly looked forward to a time when he would rule as a king in heaven.
and he is power-hungry?
I'm not usually a cynic about individuals, but there are other explanations.
The fact that basically all the anointed ones (except the obviously mentally unbalanced ones) have clearly dedicated many, many years to Jehovah, shows they have a real love for Jehovah.
Except for the ones that 'fall away'.
I can't believe it's a coincidence that 8000+ people who have dedicated their lives to Jehovah will today be able to believe beyond all certainty that they are anointed. To me it shows that whilst there may be issues with the Organization that need improvement, it still has Jehovah's approval, and it must therefore be the closest religion to having the Truth, even if it does get things wrong sometimes.
There are many people other religions that are 'born again' who are just as zealous in their belief in God and fervently believe that they will go to heaven. Does that mean God is with their religions?
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apfergus
First of all, hello and welcome. I hope you find the answers you're looking for. Just be prepared for answers that might surprise you.
I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you implying that people who practice religions other than the Jehovah's Witnesses brand of Christianity don't really believe it "beyond all doubt"? If that's not what you meant to imply, why would the Jehovah's Witnesses' faith be better placed if people of other religion's have just as much confidence in theirs (which I can assure you, many do). -
Gopher
Welcome to the forum. (Your post would be easier to read if you broke it up into a few paragraphs.)
The WT Society's explanation of 144,000 has many difficulties. If this is to be understood as a literal number who go to heaven, it seems reasonable that the number would have been filled long before 1879 when the Watchtower was started. It seems quite likely that Russell and Rutherford taught the literalness of that number (and their group's special inclusion in that number) to market their brand of religion.
After the number of JW's grew larger in the 1930's, it became apparent that not all JW's could possibly have such a 'heavenly hope'. So they had to invent the second-class Witness, a.k.a. the "other sheep". Christ is not the mediator for the "other sheep" according to WT doctrine, but mediator only for the special heavenly class.
In the past decade or two, the number of partakers at the Memorial has stagnated near 8000. When I was growing up JW, it was commonly taught that this number would dwindle as the end drew near. That hasn't happened. Obviously something is wrong.
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Buster
I think you are sincere ... and welcome.
But if you can ever pull away from all those head-nodding indoctrination sessions, you may someday perceive your reasoning for the insanity that it is.
144,000: Insane that so much of the almighty's big plan would be implied by two references in the most figurative book in the bible.
Replacements: The insanity of the replacement theory would be obvious to you, if it were not for the fact that Freddie and the society invented it.
8,000 still remain: The insanity that of the 10,000 or so from the 70's, 8,000 still remain (even in new incarnations as replacements) should be obvious.
You won't see the obvious until you are ready. We'll be here when you are.
Good luck.
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Inquisitor
how could people become anointed ones without the holy spirit and Jehovah on the side of the Organization?
Why do we have to necessarily accept that they are what they claim to be? I mean how does one prove that he/she is an anointed one?
Long years of service? Profound knowledge of the Bible? There are many who fall into this category and yet do not claim to belong to this class.
Conviction that he/she will be going to heaven? By this same conviction young Muslim men have been ready to sacrifice their lives to perform terrorist acts. Are you so confident it is beyond the human mind to convince itself and those of others that a celestial destiny awaits him or her? An anointed JW needn't assure us of his convictions with a grenade, just a bold sip of wine and a nibble of dry bread is all it takes.
but after this he had no interest in going to the paradise, and instantly looked forward to a time when he would rule as a king in heaven.
Look at it this way: it would be rather stupid of him to tell people he still intends to build himself a mansion in the "New World" after announcing that he is going to rule in heaven, don't you think?
INQ
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Inquisitor
Oh and uh welcome to the board Zico!
INQ
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lovelylil
Hi there,
I hope I can help you. I also became what you call "anointed" while I was in the organization. Now I am out and I still feel the same way. Some people call this being "spirit begotten" I have come to realize that it simply does not matter what organization you belong to for this to happen. I have met people who have the heavenly hope in all denominations. And, I have no reason at all to doubt their sincerity. I can tell you this though, I am a little suspect about some of those in the WT organization who claim to be "anointed", only because it is usally based on a false belief about the whole process. The organization makes it sound very mystical when they say "you will just know" you are one of them. And that you know you are getting a crown as ruler. Let me say this, from personal experience, the ONLY thing you know is that you have a very strong desire to be with Jehovah God and Christ Jesus and to serve them. I have found this to be true with all I have met who have this hope. You will want to please your heavenly father and Jesus before anyone else. The reason I am skeptical too in the Watchtower is they do not serve Jesus at all. Once I became what you call "anointed", I could not even stand to sit there anylonger and listen to the twisting of scripture nor the thanking of the faithful slave nonsense. But this is just my experince and may not be the norm. I know many who became anointed by spirit and left the Org. like I did.
Once you have this experience, you are given a measure of Holy Spirit and you would know you have been chosen because your life will change and you will be led by the spirit. Paul explains it wonderfully in Romans Chapter 8, you should read the whole thing. You will also see those ones showing that they have the proper fruitages of the spirit. see Galatians chapter 5 for those. But you do not know if you are getting a crown for the bible says that Many are CALLED but few are CHOSEN. Recieving the Holy Spirit is evidence of our CALLING but not our getting the crown as a final reward. There will be many at the marriage feast (see the parable of the wedding banquet in Matthew) that have the proper wedding garments (meaning they were called) but were not part of the bride. Only the bride will recieve the crown. Not everyone who is called. This is where the WT has it very wrong. They believe only 144,000 go to heaven at all. I think the 144,000 may represent the Bride but there are millions that will be found faithful and be at the marriage feast. They all have Holy Spirit, the 144,000 and the Great Crowd, are both in heaven. There is NO such thing as two classes of Christians. Even if they do not all get a crown, they are still in the same race for the crown. But those who do not get it are still approved and in heaven. This is a whole other thing though. But no one can judge who is anointed with spirit or not. I always took offense at the elders questioning people who claimed this hope because what can they ask them to prove it? NOTHING! Only that person and Jehovah would know anyway.
Another thing is this: the WT has closed the heavenly door but only Christ can do that. He is the door and he promised who ever knocks it will be open to them. They have no right to say it is shut. They are trying to keep those who are called from partaking and coming into the relationship they were called for. And the fact that many more are claiming to be anointed these days does not surprise me. Remember the Parable of the late coming workers into the vineyard? This is a prophecy that before the end, in the latter days, more workers (anointed servants) will come to work. Raymond Franz mentions this in his books and I agree. Then the earlier ones are jealous remember? It is because they were working longer but to Christ and God it does not matter. No matter when you were called, either at Pentecost or sometime in our day, you still are in the race for the same prize. Those who are waking up now are just late coming workers. I myself included.
So just to sum it up. Recieving Holy Spirit is evidence of your calling to serve God and be in heaven but not that you will definately know you are getting a crown. Those who truly have the spirit will be led by it. If you have other questions please email me [email protected]
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Jourles
Read Rev again and ask yourself if this string fits together --
symbolic...symbolic...symbolic...symbolic...literal...symbolic...symbolic...symbolic
he was always very excited about the prospect, but after this he had no interest in going to the paradise, and instantly looked forward to a time when he would rule as a king in heaven.
Of course his views would change. He just stepped up a rung on the ladder. His views must now fit his so-called "special status." Oh, and ask him if he is still a virgin.