by Zico 41 Replies latest jw friends
whyizit,
You are right. Heaven is not limited to 144,000 for the bible clealy says that all who receive him (Jesus) he gave the right to become sons of God. There is no limit to that number. Therefore 144,000 could apply to something else. Some feel while all christians go to heaven only 144,000 get to sit on thrones and rule. I am not sure about the 144,000 except that I know it does not apply to the heaven bound.
Lady Liberty,
great point about the 144,000. There are been more martyrs who died thru-out history than 144,000. So that number has to be symbolic! Nowhere does Christ even mention that number. All those baptized into Christ are his true christians and have the opportunity to be with him.
The WTBTS believes that the bible is written exclusively for the "anointed" and nobody can understand it without their publications and reasonings , which have been proven false countless times, so to question their understanding is redundant. Personally I believe that being "anointed" and being in the remnant of 144k is not necessarily the same thing. The 144k die as martyrs after having lived as eunichs and worshipping God day and night . Armageddon is the spiritual battle between the two seeds of christ and the devil , so the "anointed 144k" have to endure and remain faithful to the death . The great crowd are people that survive the great tribulation and I believe can still be anointed but are not given the co-ruler possition. They inherit the kingdom of the heavens and join in the marriage feast but they are the ones that are "changed" as the apostle Paul wrote . Jesus said flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of the heavens which is the city of new jerusalem that lands on earth .
Dear Lilian, Thanks for taking the time to share your personal insights in trying to answer my question. I sincerely hope your hope and conviction will turn out to be true for all of us; I, for one, would not mind there being some meaning and purpose to this life after all - for a God to make everything right. For all the evil that pervades JWism, I've seen too many sincere people within the org as well. I wish for their dreams to come true and for all of humanity and its religions to profit from them. But trust ultimately erodes and many questions remain unanswered; the bible is a bloody book as well, from the beginning to the end of Revelation. VG
Welcome zico. I think lovelylil said it best. I've said it before and I will say it again JW's do not have a monopoly on God. I spent 40 years as a JW and many of them as an elder, even giving the memorial talk. I do not believe that only 144,000 go to heaven. Do the math and you will see it does not add up to what JW's claim.
As for this unscriptural "replacement" doctrine: tell your anointed PO that you'll be watching HIM real close, because if he screws up like the other guy did, you want his spot on "the team."
Based on the arguments you've presented, hundreds of people in insane asylums MUST be Napoleon Bonaparte.
A useful tool when examining teachings such as these is to ask," what it it take to prove this untrue?"
As has already been said, WHEN YOU ARE READY, you will see that the anointed are not wearing any togas.
Zico,
I was openly an Anointed JW for 20 years of the 25 years I was in the organization. During that time, I served as a Ministerial Servant and then an Elder. I have posted much on this topic under my older screen name, Amazing. I will find some of those posts and send you some PMs.
The reason that there are those among Jehovah's Witnesses who proclaim to be anointed is that the religion sets up the conditions for this belief. They likewise set up the condition that keeps the number low. It was well over 12,000 when I became a Witness in the 1960s, has hovered around 8,000 since the late-1970s. If the Watchtower doctrine is accuract, then it seems that suddenly an awful lot of JW anointed become unfaithful and have to be replaced.
The entire Watchtower concept of anointed stands against what is actually taught in the Bible, and is one of many false doctrines, both from a Cristology standpoint, as well as a human nature standpoint. I will be happy to share more later, but essentially, and sadly, the JW anointed concept is nothing more than a fiction perpetrated upon what otherwise are normally decent people.
In the Bible, ALL Christians are anointed, and are also many other things, such as children of God, a holy nation, kings and priests, slaves, etc. The term "anointed" is merely one among these features. The Watchtower glorifies this title into something that is unchristian, and not in keeping with the humble setting of being equal brothers and sisters to one another as the Apostle Paul exhorted. He essentialy told us that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, male or female, for are all the same in Christ.
PM me and let me know if you wish for me to dig out my older posts and send them to you. Or you can use my e-mail address: [email protected]. Everyone knows that address, including the Society, so I give it out freely.
Jim Whitney
Dear VG,
I hope I did help in some small way. Jehovah sent his son to help reconcile us back to God. He wants to make everything right, not destroy everyone in the process.
Christ came to teach us the truth about God and offered any that wanted to follow him the chance to do so. He did not do this with fear and chastisement nor threatened to destroy those who wished to take a different path in life. What he taught came do be known as the Christian faith which there are millions of believers in this. The only simple requirements is to believe Christ was the Son of God and he died for our sins and that on the third day, he was raised to life again. That is basically all of it in a nutshell. He did away with the old ways and for those who believe, we are already reconciled back to God by way of the New Covenant. Our faith in Christ justifies us. We do not need any other rules and regulations. That is how really simple it is. If you accept this, and are baptized into christ, you are a true believer. You will recieve the promise of the Holy Spirit to help guide you but are under the yoke of man no more.
It is man in his thirst for Greed and want to dominate his fellow man that created Religion. And he is the one that set up all the rules, doctrines, and other regulations. And used fear to keep them in line. Not Christ, not Jehovah. Christ said we shall all one day "worship in spirit and truth". And "where two or more are gathered in my name, I am there". You don't need a building, a creed, or any doctrines written in stone. No wonder Jesus was hated by the religous leaders. They lost all their power over the ones who put faith in Christ and his simple way.
When you truly know that you don't need all that and you are already justified by faith - your life becomes much simpler. And you are totally free! Besides those few things, you are free to worship in your own way. Think about it: Christ said my "yoke is kindly and light", and he meant it. My honest prayer for the future is that all people will be released from false religious institutions that mislead, dominate and abuse them. And I know this is one prayer that will come true. And not a day too soon. Take care, God bless. Lilly
My wife was asked once when witnessing " Why do you take the number 144000 as literal when the rest of the book of Revelation is figurative?"
She didn't have an answer. Never thought of it before....ever. Dumb reasoning like it only mentions one lamb....lame is more like it.
Good luck with your search, hope that you can reason on what has been presented thus far. I have enjoyed your topic and the replies.
Have you used e-sword? Bible research software mostly free.
vitty said:
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I couldnt understand why there always seemed to be around 8000 partakers even after 20 years this figure was the same, it could only mean there must have been lots and lots of annointed ones who lost their crowns and had to be replaced.
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This was discussed in a recent thread: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/111717/1.ashx
Interesting note from that is that in the year 2114 (200 years after 1914) there will still be 3,352 annointed -- and presumably, they will ALL be replacements, since no one alive in 1935 will be alive in 2114.
Also, according to that projection, the Anointed won't be reduced to zero until the year 2335, 421 years after 1914, and 400 years after 1935.
A thought just occured to me: the number of Anointed should NEVER increase. Think about it: the number is "sealed" and "complete" in 1935 (according to Watchtowerism). The number can only decrease, as people die. If an Anointed gets DF'd, then some other lucky stiff takes his place (again, according to Watchtowerism). That new guy is just replacing another member. But it can't increase the number at all.
An increase in the number of Anointed is impossible according to the rules provided by Watchtowerism's mythology. And yet it has happened: 1970, 1973, 1974, 1981, 1989, 1990, 1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2002, 2004.
~Q
