Thank You Ray Franz.

by Martini 63 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  nicolaou

  I've been reading C of C and ISOCF side by side for the past six months.

  Liberating, humbling, depressing - where do you start?

  Any former JW who's read these books will know just how liberating Ray's work is. He writes from a unique perspective that even his opponents must admit has given him an authoritative insight.

  I kept thinking as I was reading "the man who wrote these books also wrote so many of the Watchtower articles I grew up with."
  Far from being angry I respected him for it - he had the guts to admit he'd been wrong in the past and this was his way of putting right some of the damage - now that's humbling!

  Depressing?
  That so many continue to exercise self-censorship and ignore the real truth. That so many more will suffer needlessly on hospital wards, in judicial hearings and at the hands of brothers whom so many wrongly consider to be trustworthy!

  God bless you Ray!

  Nic'

  dnc - coming soon!
• 

  Celia

  Crisis of Consciense and In Search of Christian Freedom, the best books on the market to learn the truth about The Truth.
  I wished I had read them a couple of years ago when I was doing research for a school paper about this sect. I found them only a month or so after the end of the class.
  Thank you Ray Franz.
• 

  jurs

  I'm not sure if Raymond Franz ever looks at posts here but if he does and your reading this Mr. Franz, I too would like to thank you for having courage and speaking out. Your book has helped so many who in return have helped others.
  I am so glad that I got myself and my kids out of that cult. I truly regret the day that I ever trusted and studied with the JW's. We missed out on so much but I'm also deeply grateful that I can now enjoy life and be free of guilt and fear.
  When I was a witness , I never really understood why it was so dangerous to read apostate literature. I thought surely the org could easily defend ANY accusations brought against it. It wasn't until I visited the web and read crisis of conscience that I really understood why the book was forbidden. They can't defend themselves. Crisis of Conscience shatters the org.
  Thank you again Ray, I hope you read this.......
  Jurs
• 

  teejay

  A person is brave who knows the dangers but proceeds anyway. In the context of the Watchtower Bible &Tract Society, Ray Franz' legacy will equal that of all the past reformers of the Church. Men (people) like him and Ed Dunlap are, for the lack of a better word, great. They are as much heroes as men at war who are willing to sacrifice their literal lives for the sake of the freedom of others. In my view, that is exactly what Ray did for me.

  One who finds fault with the Pope is wise to expect one billion instant enemies. In finding fault with 'God's Mouthpiece,' aka the governing body, Ray had to know the personal consequences, not the least of which is that 5 million people would judge him in the unkindest of terms without a hearing. But time is on his side - a lie has a short life, but the truth lives forever. Thousands of us owe Ray a huge debt of gratitude for telling the truth.
• 

  thewiz

  I appreciate the books. They are eye openers. I read C-o-C years ago and am now reading IS-o-CF. However, I am still leary of someone who toots their own horn like they are the big innovator or the thinker of the group.

  This is a guy that helped ruin many lives. Once a liar always a liar. He wrote this stuff as a catharsis, and we get to share. He thinks because he has this weight off his shoulders, some how he is forgiven.

  His tone sounds like he did this and did that. My Dad's the same way. you can sit there and he'll lie straight to ya'. Tell ya' what you want to hear. Listening to my father talk you'd think he was Jesus Christ himself.

  Well when I read Mr. Franz's books, i get that same tone.

  Get this Mr. Franz, you got people kissing your butt now, the same way they used to kiss the WTBS. People this is One of the guys that helped ruin all your lives!!! And now your're kissing his butt?! Again?!

  Haven't you noticed as your reading the books he never casts himself in a bad light; that is, after he left Bethel? That's the impression I get.

  Because of this guy and ones like him I doubt almost everything I read, even when I know it's true.

  I would like to know how all the references to sources names, people, events, times and places, seem all too perfect. It's like he's referencing personnal files. Do you really think that when he left Bethel they would allow him to take his personnal files with him? Now that would make them really stupid!!! He's lucky he got out of there with the shirt on his back.

  Maybe he snuck them out over a period of years. I don't know.

  Either that or he has an extremely incredible memory.

  I stated to my borther-in-law who is an elder at Bethel. why does it seems that the society seems to blame all its woes on the great "Apostacy" and Ray Franz. first thing everyone says, "Well, it was Ray Franz...." I say: "oh that's right the society, has it's scape goat." I even heard that it was Mr. Ray Franz's fault about 1975! The culture around Bethel this appears to be the unspoken case and the higher ups don't correct it but then they don't deny it either they just have a quite acquiesence and let every there think the status quo.
• 

  Anchor

  Ray tooting his own horn? Everything "too perfect"?
  Did you really read his books????

  Lie to you? Tell you everything you want to hear like your Dad?

  Wiz, you are an extremely poor judge of "tone" as well as character.

  Unless you are GodRules starting all over again.

  -A
• 

  Gopher

  Thewiz,

  Sorry to be following you around on so many posts today, it's just that the stuff you're writing about-- I cannot resist!

  Please keep reading ISOCF! (It's quite a lengthy read, I wasn't able to finish it myself. But I did finish COC, it was quite enough for me.)

  You said Ray Franz was scapegoated by the headquarters, you are quite correct. I heard lots of things about him that later turned out to be hogwash.... For example, I had heard he was DF'd FROM BETHEL. Not true. He went back to Alabama/Georgia and was an active JW for a while, until they set him up to be DF'd (with that new rule...you cannot eat with a DA'd ex-JW, even though that person was his boss and landlord!)

  Since he was lied about and treated so cruelly, we cannot trust anything that the WT Society or its representatives say about him. We only have his own words to go by, and the documents he presents. The documents all looked accurate to me! (Not that the comparison is exactly the same, but you know how the Society's publications point to the candor of the Gospel writers as witnesses to the truth of what they wrote....So it is with Ray Franz.) Ray doesn't seek to glorify himself. Carefully read it again, but with a more open mind, you may see this!

  Ray is not out to lie/ruin lives. That's what the WT Society and/or your local JW's WANT you to believe. He doesn't even begrudge people who are happy being JW's the right to stay as JW's. He's only there to bear witness to what he saw, and unburden his conscience about what turns out to be a religion of man-made rules. Truly like Jesus said, it's just another bad tree producing bad fruits, not unlike a lot of other hierarchical / legalistic religions of our times and times gone by.

  Whose lives did he ruin? Nobody has a gun pointed to their head forcing them to read or believe what he writes.

  But maybe upon further re-reading and consideration, you'll come to see that what he says, sadly, is true. Like Ray, many of us NEVER really wanted to leave JW's. But it seems along the road to paradise, the JW's got lost, and are now grasping at straws in many ways....Wild accusations against their opposers, harsh discipline, and unprovable end-time doctrines (complete with many false ideas like "millions NOW living will never die", circa 1920).

  Best wishes as you consider all this, and I appreciate that you do post your thoughts out here!

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)
• 

  Billygoat

  Anchor - no kidding!

  Wiz - Exactly what books did YOU read? IF you read anything by Ray Franz - you will notice that he never tooted his own horn. He's as humble as they come and it's OBVIOUS in his style of writing. Ray never said or even inferred that he was an innovator of any group.

  When you state:

  I would like to know how all the references to sources names, people, events, times and places, seem all too perfect.

  ...this is too funny! If Ray Franz had misquoted or given any information in his book that wasn't correct, don't you think that the WTS would have filed a lawsuit against him? Their silence almost proves their guilt. I think the fact that RF is willing to share exact details, exact names, dates, and places took courage. IF it was incorrect, then he would've been in court years ago!

  Andi
• 

  thewiz

  I read C-o-C but I am still in the process of reading IS-o-CF

  What I try to attempt in my life is to establish truth, that is all. from no matter where i hear it or learn it.

  Let's say I read the WT or A! (which i haven't for 2 years) you say I have a closed mind.

  Then when you say I read Mr Franz's books I have an open mind. Get my point?

  I read everything with an open mind. just because someone says something doesn't make it so.

  Remember, what the adage says (especially about newspapers), 'Don't believe EVERYTHING you read."

  That includes Mr. Franz

  Notice I said "EVERYTHING." I don't believe EVERYTHING he says. I would love to believe every single word of it, believe me I would. But I'm not, I'm just not that way... anymore.

  It appears that everything is constucted in a logical manner, the reasoning is just as good as the WTBS -remember he was there writing for you and me at one time, don't forget that. After years-and-years of tautological rebrobate, he still is in essence the same man.

  He's just come clean that's all.

  He's given his side of the story.

  Remember there are always THREE sides to a story.

  mine
  yours
  and the truth

  Mr. Franz if you listening, i mean no disrespect. but looking back at a life filled with doubt, depression, and rejection, I don't forgive that easily. It's not in my Italian blood to let go that completely.
• 

  Gopher

  Wiz,

  Thanks again for an honest reply. Our dialogue is starting to get somewhere now!

  (My mistake on the previous post--- I now understand you meant that Mr. Franz ruined lives as a writer for the WT Society, and not now. Duh, it took a little while to catch on....)

  OK, Mr. Franz was part of the WT machinery for years. Like many of us, he was caught up in it, really believing that despite its flaws, the WT Society in combination with God's Word held the answer, the hope for all humankind.

  We cannot begrudge him his background. It is that background, and the inside information he gained as he was promoted through all its levels, that put him in a position where he could write a thorough expose of the WT organization. He alone could show us the inner workings at the very top.

  Those who appear to be "kissing ass" really in most cases are just grateful (after perhaps at first being astounded) that someone in his position would write so courageously and so candidly! I trust the candid nature of his work, because of the documentation (photo copies) included, and also because (as a previous poster said) he could have been liable for false or misleading statements, if his work contained any. You know the Society's lawyers combed through COC and ISOCF, looking for nits to pick!

  I think the truth of what the WT Society has been UP to all these years is well-established. They are a self-perpetuating publishing house, rarely if ever interested in the welfare of its humblest members. Other evidences of that are well documented in Mr. Franz's books. (You don't need me to tell you, I think you know as well or better than I do)

  BTW, if you read Watchtower or Awake (which you haven't for 2 years), I wouldn't say you had a closed mind. I'd say there's something that you're looking for, something to establish. Or you just want to see what they're currently serving as "spiritual food" to their eager followers! In my mind, the more data you can gather about a given topic, even some contradictory data, eventually you do come closer to the truth.

  That's what you're trying to accomplish, right? I hope you enjoy this forum! It's got a lot of great topics. Hope to see more of your posts on other topics.

  GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
  Mark Twain (1835-1910)