OK believers, time to put up or shut up...

by Gregor 238 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Sad emo
    Sad emo

    Gregor

    A little lateral thinking!

    Whether there is or there isn't a god - bad stuff will still happen. If you want to blame God for all the crap that happens, why can't you at least be fair and credit him with the good stuff too?

    Who would you blame if there definitely was no god? Could it possibly be that the buck stops here but man has become a masterclass at not accepting responsibility for anything?

    If there is a god - why should he give a toss what happens? He's god and he can do or not do whatever he likes - he isn't answerable to you or anyone else. (Essentially the message of Job, which you don't like!).

    A Christian believes that there is a God does give a toss - so much that he even sent his own son to die for humanity. They believe that he has a bigger picture than they have - even when everything seems to be a mess. (no, you won't like that either!)

    I can't prove or disprove anything to you. Like jgnat, all I have is the evidence in my own life. (no that answer won't hold either!)

    Matthews gospel:

    12:38
    Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you."
    12:39
    He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
    12:40
    For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
    12:41
    The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.
    12:42
    The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.

    Nope. Can't answer your question - I think it's something each person has to work out for themselves. I've said my two penn'orth so I'll shut up now. Blessings

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Gregor,

    Time to put up or shut up? Why?

    According to your world view, what do I owe you except respect and tolerance of your beliefs to the extent that my ethos allows? And if I owe you that, what do you owe me according to your world view?

    All you have to defend your "belief" is vague stuff like, "How could a banana have just evolved?" or some other trite crap.

    In point of fact, there is only one human to whom I owe a defense of my beliefs. I owe myself a defense. I owe a defense for my hope which I will be happy to give you anytime you ask. But I don't owe you a defense for my beliefs. My defense to myself of my beliefs does not involve a banana or some other trite crap.

    I do not believe it is possible to prove to someone else that God exists, while I do believe it is possible to prove to someone else that it is a possibility (and not the God of gaps).

    I find it funny when I read comments like the one from apfergus, who is deeply involved in the field of physical sciences of subatomic particles. Quantum physics is the frontier and apfergus says when you get to the level of gluons (and presumably other bosons) you are required to suspend disbelief in order to accept the way physical reality behaves.

    How, exactly, is this different than faith?

    But, I will take a rational approach to your question:

    Why does "god" permit evil, wickedness and tragic misfortune??

    Because he rarely ever intervenes in the process he started. Scientifically, can you actually give an objective instance of something that is "evil," "wicked," or "trajic." Permit me a brief thought exercise.

    Suppose Adolf Hitler was the baby who drowned in a bucket of water. From the perspective of little Adolf's parents, tragedy. From the perspective of neighbors, "WHY God, oh WHY did little Adolf have to die?" From the perspective of many holocaust survivors, they very much wish Adolf had drowned in a bucket with four inches of water as a baby. From the perspective of other potential victims of planned genocide that were unsuccessful because of the lessons learned through the example of the Nazi regime, they should be quite pleased that Adolf did not die.

    Which would have been a good outcome if we look back at the history after 200,000 years? Which the evil outcome? What is "tragedy" in any objective sense when you have no idea the world we would live in had the "tragedy" not occurred? This is not an argument in favor of nihilism, merely an objective recognition of the fact that to know what harm is requires an ability to know a history that never occurred.

    Now, suppose that there is a being who exists outside our plane of existence, outside our capacity to accurately measure, outside our discovered "frequency" range, if you will. Suppose this being is able to dispense with the constraint of time as it pertains to our plane of existence, much the same way you are able to scratch your nose when it itches. Possessing that ability does not mean you must scratch your nose at all times.

    Now that we have these primary suppositions in place, my answer to you would be that such "bad things" are allowed because of a difference in perspective. From his perspective it isn't an evil.

    I would enjoy reading your response.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Bizzy Bee

    You did it again! This is a discussion board, I believe, not Argumentation 101. Honestly, it is difficult enough to get concise responses without going off on critiquing how questions are framed. We do have the option of not answering every thread.

    As a Christian on this board, I felt I was put in a catch-22 by Gregor. He challenged me, and Christians like me, to "put up or shut up". He claimed Christians cannot give a "logical" answer. Yet most of his challenge consisted of insults and ad-hominem attacks. I had a choice of defending myself by responding emotionally to the attacks, walk away, or ignore the intense passion of his statements and dig down to the sincere questions beneath.

    I chose to respond to the sincere part. Perhaps that was a mistake.

    Now, if I were to do a proper logical response, I do have to go back to the basics, which includes Argumentation 101. Of course, I don't bother correcting people's work on fluff threads, but this was not intended as a fluff thread, was it?

    First step in preparing a good response is to start with a good question. Argumentation 101. What is the basis of Gregor's beef with the faith of Christians?

    "How can an all-powerful, good God, allow bad things to happen?"

    Several Christians have provided a variety of reasons. I don't claim to know. I do admit bad things happen and God doesn't stop it. I don't believe God does evil things. I hope God evens out the scorecard later. That is how I've reconciled myself to the dillemma.

    But, Gregor has a bigger problem. He is still framing his beliefs in Judeo-Christian ethics. Based on his examples, he believes in "good". He sees value in protecting the young from harm. Some athiests, after thorough examination of their own moral foundation, have rejected all cultural norms and have adopted the ethics of "the fittest will survive". Gregor hasn't done this. Why?

    I wouldn't characterize Gregor as an athiest, rather, but a man who is very angry at God, and still pissed off that he was duped.

    And, finally, Gregor, it is premature to dismiss people who have not come to the same conclusions you have. You display the same aggression you project on some Christians here.

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Wow. I believe in God.

    I don't know why suffering exists. I don't like suffering.

    I wish God would make suffering go away.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    Suppose Adolf Hitler was the baby who drowned in a bucket of water. From the perspective of little Adolf's parents, tragedy. From the perspective of neighbors, "WHY God, oh WHY did little Adolf have to die?" From the perspective of many holocaust survivors, they very much wish Adolf had drowned in a bucket with four inches of water as a baby. From the perspective of other potential victims of planned genocide that were unsuccessful because of the lessons learned through the example of the Nazi regime, they should be quite pleased that Adolf did not die.

    Which would have been a good outcome if we look back at the history after 200,000 years? Which the evil outcome? What is "tragedy" in any objective sense when you have no idea the world we would live in had the "tragedy" not occurred? This is not an argument in favor of nihilism, merely an objective recognition of the fact that to know what harm is requires an ability to know a history that never occurred.

    That is damn good, AuldSoul.

    There is so much we don`t know. The whole point of "God" is to realise this fact, and then, to avoid just drowning in despair over all the horror (which we couldn`t possibly ever understand), "give yourself" to God. It sounds primitive, and it can be, but I think it`s also beautiful. I`m not a christian, but I think I understand the whole idea.

  • beksbks
    beksbks
    "give yourself" to God. It sounds primitive, and it can be, but I think it`s also beautiful.

    Therein lies one of my beefs with christians. This idea takes personal responsibility out of the equation. Just believe, just have faith, and god will take care of the rest. I'm so glad there are scientists and researchers out there, that were unable to take this path. Look at the progresses we have made in medicine alone. Yes, we have also managed to discover/create plenty of harmful things too, but as we move along, we learn how to address that as well. Or we will, when the Bush administration ends

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Whoever said about the fanaticism has a great point. I have no problem with people being religious or atheist but when they start shoving it at me I do have a problem. In our village its getting really fanatical - the local non denominational church seems to be on a mission to hoover everyone up and the teens outside have glazed eyes. On the other hand Mr C is fanatically atheistic IMO and I don;t liek when he says stuff about basically just shooting all the religious fanatics - especially when there's no sign of irony in it!

    And yes God planned our redemption from the beginning

    the problem I have with this lovelil is that if he planned our redemption from the beginning then he must have planned on our sinning too so that we would need redemption. Therefore he created adam so that he was doomed to fail his expectations. Thats not a nice God...

  • Crumpet
    Crumpet

    Whoever said about the fanaticism has a great point. I have no problem with people being religious or atheist but when they start shoving it at me I do have a problem. In our village its getting really fanatical - the local non denominational church seems to be on a mission to hoover everyone up and the teens outside have glazed eyes. On the other hand Mr C is fanatically atheistic IMO and I don;t liek when he says stuff about basically just shooting all the religious fanatics - especially when there's no sign of irony in it!

    And yes God planned our redemption from the beginning

    the problem I have with this lovelil is that if he planned our redemption from the beginning then he must have planned on our sinning too so that we would need redemption. Therefore he created adam so that he was doomed to fail his expectations. Thats not a nice God...

  • beksbks
    beksbks

    You said it Crumpet! In fact, you said it twice

  • hubert
    hubert
    Lest you think I'm 'angry' with god let me assure you I am no more angry with god than I am angry with the cupboard door I left open and cracked my head on.

    Been there, done that.

    Almost took the door off the hinges....Had a headache for 3 days.

    That's all I got to say on the subject.

    Hubert

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