Good that Christians don't need mediators between themselves and Christ. They can come to Christ directly without ambassadors :) And Christ promissed to be with us till end of ages. Better to be with relationship with the King directly atleast you have guarantee that he knows you and you know him.
NWT 2 Corinthians 5:20
by TheListener 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
An overtranslation bordering on mistranslation: huper + genitive requires nothing more than "for, on behalf of," and the specific nuance of substitution would rather be carried by another preposition, anti.
Note how the NWT translates the same expression huper Khristou in 12:10:
Therefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in cases of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.
Why did they not translate "as a substitute for Christ"? Maybe it would have sounded too Catholic...
Another interesting text in this perspective is Colossians 1:24, where the NWT tries hard to avoid the idea of apostolic substitutive suffering.
I am now rejoicing in my sufferings for YOU (huper humôn), and I, in my turn, am filling up (antanaplèrô) what is lacking of the tribulations of the Christ in my flesh on behalf of his body (huper tou sômatos autou), which is the congregation.
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Spectrum
Gumby,
I think there is a fundamental difference between a ambassador and substitute.
A substitute teacher has her own way of doing things which may be different from the substituted. Similarly with a footballer. They are both in the same game but are allowed to behave and more importantly add their own personal two cents worth.
An ambassador must relay the message exactly as agreed with his/her superiors often down to the letter so that no dangerous misunderstandings ensue.
I think the WTS was very clever using this word as it adds credance to their claim of being God's earthly organisation. -
TheListener
Nice discussion. Some excellent points have been made.
I especially liked what Shazard said
Good that Christians don't need mediators between themselves and Christ. They can come to Christ directly without ambassadors :) And Christ promissed to be with us till end of ages. Better to be with relationship with the King directly atleast you have guarantee that he knows you and you know him.
Regardless of the words used by the NWT the fact remains that anyone who calls on Jesus and recognizes the value of his ransom sacrifice (there must be a non-jw term for that) will be saved. Perhaps an easy way to explain it to a JW is to say that all christians are ambassadors substituting for Christ UNTIL the one listening accepts Jesus and puts faith in his ransom sacrifice; at that point the listener also becomes an ambassador. I could find nothing in the Bible that supported a separate class of Envoys. Ambassadors, yes. Envoys, no. -
Narkissos
Perhaps an easy way to explain it to a JW is to say that all christians are ambassadors substituting for Christ UNTIL the one listening accepts Jesus and puts faith in his ransom sacrifice; at that point the listener also becomes an ambassador.
This is indeed a popular Protestant interpretation, but I doubt it does justice to the use of the 1st-person plural (we-us) in Paul, especially 2 Corinthians, where it stands for a specific group of "apostles" (definitely not the "twelve" of the Gospels and Acts, but not "all Christians" either).
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TheListener
Oh man Narkissos you're killing me.
Just when I think I've some sort of handle on an issue you pop up and turn me upside down. THANK YOU.
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2112
If they are sub-ing for Christ then why does he need ro return? Follow me on this for a moment.
In 1914 Christ viewed all the worlde religions and found only the Witnesses doing the right thing. We all know that very little of what they believed then is still taught today. So they, the subs, improved Gods message, and therefore don't need Christ.
What a bunch of arrogant asses.
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M.J.
Great topic.
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Rooster
The NWT of the bible is loaded with changes that fit their teachings.. They will have to answer to Christ for this..
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gumby
2112......the watchtowers answer for this would be to quote Jesus when he "entrusted all his belongings" to his diciples. He said when he returned he would see who used their talents in a worthwhile way........so he did give permission for his followers to do his work.........with the aid of the holy spirit directing things and teaching them on how to instruct others.
Gumby