Why did Jews cut their willies?!!

by Spectrum 43 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  lovelylil

  Leolaia,

  Thanks for that explaination. Since the Jews were going into what was similar to a marriage contract, since they had to stay spiritual virgins in their worship to Jehovah, and the church today also must be clean spiritually (like virgins) then it would make sense that this is the "sign" that God would give them. Although they may have used circumcism prior to that for another purpose, it seems like if you believe God gave them this command, that he took something they were already familiar with - and gave it a new meaning by applying it to their relationship with God. This would be something they could readily relate too. Does this make sense?

  As you said, there is not much information about this issue. But thanks for answering. Some may find a topic like this to be one to tear down someones faith but I feel the opposite. And NO I am not saying I think that was the purpose of the thread. It was obvious that it was a sincere question asked, and a very good one.

  Lets face it, there is a lot of symbolism used in the bible and customs back then that would be foreign to us. And there is no black/white answer for everything. But, I really enjoyed this post because it got me to think outside the "normal box" we believers put ourselves in sometimes. And I learned something totally new which is that the nations surrounding Isreal also did the circumcism custom.
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  juni

  I don't think it was a practice among the "nations" of the time. It set the Israelites apart from them. It was for health reasons also.

  Jedi Juni :)
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  lovelylil

  Juni,

  look at Narkissos post - he brings out the scriptures and I looked them up. He is correct. I know it was news to me too.
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  juni

  Thanks Lily -

  I stand corrected. I believe from a medical standpoint there is less bleeding at 8 days. Poor Ishmael. So these other peoples (pagans) performed circumcision. What was their reason? Health? Offering to gods?

  Now I'm understanding better the reason for the original post. There were quite a few strange things that Jehovah wanted done.

  Juni
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  juni

  I think you, Lily, and Leolaia have a good answer that makes sense for the "new light" about circumcision. It's been so long ago, but weren't there men that they captured that had to be circumcised to be a part of the Israelite nation? Something like that?

  Thanks for your reply.

  Juni
• 

  z

  had to be circumcised to be a part of the Israelite nation?

  I'm one of the Isrealite and I can say I have Free Willy

  Z
• 

  greendawn

  This practice had to do with health reasons some people claim because circumcision did away with the warm, moist and dark area under the foreskin that is the ideal breeding ground for bacteria and fungi.
  
  It also had some mystical significance that the Apostle Paul associates with the circumcision of the heart, being sensitive to spiritual issues.
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  Narkissos

  If I am not mistaken the pictures Leolaia posted are from Egyptian tombs in Saqqara, Lower-Egypt (near Memphis) and dated from the late 3rd millenium BC -- long before the time ascribed to Abraham by those who take the patriarchal stories "historically". Of course, it is still debated in which periods and on which category of the male population circumcision was actually practiced in Egypt.

  As to the original connection with marriage and the in-laws in a Canaanite setting, Genesis 34 is another interesting reference. As a side remark, this is not as different from the "puberty rite" as we might think because puberty and marriage were rarely years apart as in modern societies -- in many cases it may have been the same "passage".

  As to the rationalisation of circumcision on health grounds, I think it is an anachronism -- a modern apologetic view retrojected on ancient texts which had completely different issues in view.
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  juni

  Heh greendawn (Mr. Science-guy)-

  That's true about the foreskin staying on unless you're very diligent about cleaning the area.

  I think this is a good time if any to say that there is the:

  "typical and anti-typical foreskin" - this would fit in w/what you said about the heart, greendawn

  JEDI JUNI
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  Gamaliel

  To me, it seems that it was just another fertility rite. I'm just throwing in some more ideas but without any specific evidence that backs them up.
  
  It seems that it was not to make Jews different from nations around them. Most Jewish rituals had parallels in the nations around them.
  
  It also seems doubtful to me that there is very much evidence to the claim that blood-clotting factors are measurably higher on the eighth day than they are on the seventh or ninth, or anywhere close, for that matter.
  
  It also seems to me that it was not to make sex less sensitive, or make it "dirty". It may have been considered a way to make it MORE sensitive, and in the long run, may have actually been considered a fertility rite with practical fertility benefits, not just symbolic ones. Towards the symbolism angle, there is some evidence that nations who did not circumcise found the practice vulgar because it made every penis look as if it were in an aroused state even if it weren't. That might have made the idea of circumcision seem fitting as a fertility symbol. A Greek man or woman could look at an un-circumcised penis without embarrassment because it was "covered" or clothed by a foreskin. But the Jews in the gymnasium were "naked".
  
  It may have been related to "covenant" sacrifice which involved various types of "cutting between", even cutting an animal carcass in half (and walking between the pieces) as was sometimes seen in Jewish contract rituals. But most ancient sacrifices of all types were also related to fertility in one way or another. (You gave back the first fruits of the harvest so that God would continue to bless the family/field/nation with fertility. You devoted your firstborn child to the same God who you would pray to to "open the barren womb".)
  
  The very promise/covenant to Abraham symbolized with his circumcision was so that he would also be fertile. (And his seed would become numerous.)
  
  If the Jews got it primarily from the Egyptians, they may have done it with a new twist. (ouch)
  It's quite possible, that only Egyptian priests generally had it done. This might fit a new significance that Jews gave this fertility rite. Jews sometimes referred to themselves as a whole nation of priests (the males) in a kind of priesthood for the entire world of nations. Therefore, one way to symbolize that this priesthood belonged to the whole nation was to circumcise all of them.
  
  Gamaliel