what is the definition of a christian? (page 4)

A Paduan

the Jedi are selfless, thinking of others

whereas the Sith’s passions are inward, thinking of the self

"Christian": originally a nickname, or label, first given by outsiders then claimed by the insiders (cf. Acts 11:26). As an objective definition in religious taxonomy its application depends on history and its ramifications -- making the JWs, for instance, a Christian / Protestant / Baptist / Adventist sect: even though they want to forget about the intermediate steps there's no grounds to deny them the first one just because they claim it.

Another thing is when the "Christian" label which is supposed to define the group as a whole is reinserted within the group, as a discriminating value marker. When you can be a Catholic, a Protestant, and not a "Christian". When people who were born into Christian religions are said to "become Christians" at some point in their life. When "conversion" means something else than "changing religions". Here "Christian" actually means "true Christian" (by the speaker's standards) and becomes a militant, potentially aggressive and divisive word -- because it questions its first, unifying use as a collective identity marker. Otoh it becomes another, transdenominational, identity marker among the "true ones". "How long have you been a Christian" plays the same role among Evangelicals or Charismatics, whatever their church membership, as "how long have you been in the truth" among JWs.

This probably can happen in any sizeable group. In the muslim community you can hear of someone who was raised a muslim that s/he became a muslim (when he started to take the religion seriously for instance).

sinamongurl

I'm sure Jesus had personal relationships with his disciples, but I don't think it follows that after his death one can have a "personal relationship" with him. He's been dead for 2000 years!

Parakeet---Agreed.....and that was one of the points I was trying to make/understand.......he (jesus) is no longer human or jesus....in heaven he is now michael correct? no longer human but a god

Van Gogh

Great post Tex:
“For some, belief is perhaps the most difficult thing to ask.”
“The idea of grace is tempting, very tempting, and yet I need more (for lack of a better term) proof before I can go so far… I want to understand spirituality before this life is over. I can't help but feel I'm missing something.”
Shazard said: “Common. It is so simple. Christian is one who believes in Jesus Christ and has relationship with him as his big brother, saviour, king, friend, helper, protector etc. And "believe in Jesus Christ" is to believe in his Words and to believe that his Words are sayed to you personally. And to believe that he is Son of God. That is ethernal life! As Jesus Christ is ethernal life.”
Shazard, it NOT simple; that is what this thread is all about. Tex concisely stated WHY it is not simple: “When a child of abuse goes through the same dynamic, they will ask for one thing: Please make it stop. When that prayer goes unanswered, the impact is tremendous. It is an empty, lonely feeling.”
The problem is that belief is perhaps the most difficult thing to ask from those to whom distrust has become a hard-wired survival instinct – those who have had their most sincere beliefs and everything they held sacred about God and ultimate justice, often the very things that made them cling on to the WTS, discredited by that organization they entrusted themselves to, only to be spat out – those very vulnerable ones that actually cry out for a big brother, savior, king, friend, helper, protector etc. For those, believing is perhaps the most scariest things of all. The risk of being left yet again with an empty, lonely feeling might be just too much to bear.
-------------------------
Jesus said: "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” Yes, seeing is superfluous, but a gap remains to be bridged somehow. Why are many exjdubs on this board who turn to Christ not able to cross whatever divide after many years of prayer?
VG

Narkissos

.he (jesus) is no longer human or jesus....in heaven he is now michael correct? no longer human but a god

Well, "orthodox" theology has Jesus having both human and divine nature, from "Incarnation" and forever (search for "hypostatic union" for more).

But I agree that there is something peculiar in this talk of "personal relationship with Christ". When I left the JWs I was about as "Jesus-centered" as one can get but I would cringe at this expression. A "relationship with Christ" smacks of "imaginary friend" and I don't find such a familiarity in the NT. The mystical-mythological talk about "being in Christ," part of his "body," or having Christ "dwelling in us" is, I think, of a very different register. The Christ which you can relate to is not just "another person".

LittleToe

I'm sure Jesus had personal relationships with his disciples, but I don't think it follows that after his death one can have a "personal relationship" with him. He's been dead for 2000 years!

Parakeet---Agreed.....and that was one of the points I was trying to make/understand.......he (jesus) is no longer human or jesus....in heaven he is now michael correct? no longer human but a god

That seems a bit contradictory. Is he dead or is he alive in heaven? If he's alive then why can't you pray to him just as you would to God? It really doesn't seem that difficult. Sure it might be a leap of faith, to some, but the concept isn't complex... Didier:
Not even in Paul's claims per his conversion, or John's conversations in his visions at Patmos?

lovelylil

To me Christianity is a faith and not a religion. Although there are many religious organizations that claim they are Christian, even the WT. To be a true Christian according to the bible means that you are a follower of Jesus Christ and his teachings.

This being a follower means you are in a personal relationship with him and recognze him as Lord in your life and your mediator before God.

Shining One

Little Toe,
Does God define it as 'compromise'? That is where your question should be directed and the answers are in scripture.....
Rex

Narkissos

Ross,

I'd leave Revelation which depends on the apocalypsis genre rules, including specific dialogue patterns (especially with angels).

The self-expression (whether authentic or not) of Paul's experience in Galatians can help show what I mean. Does it reflect a "relationship" or "dialogue" structure or (pathological judgement aside) more something like "multiple personality"? Is Paul's "inner Jesus" an interlocutor or an alter ego in the strictest sense, i.e. an alternate "I" rather than a "you"? Or, if you prefer, where is Paul when Jesus speaks/acts in him?

I'll just translate a little more literally than the usual twice.

when God, who had set me apart before I was born and called me through his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me.

it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

This is pretty consistent with the epistle's theology: the Son / the Spirit of the Son reveals our sonship (3:26ff; 4:4ff).

Now is this the structure of a "relationship"? Does Paul relate to Christ as another or as his own real, eternal, absolute "I"?

Spectrum

Rex,

"Jesus is God: He claimed to be God; He made Himself equal to God; The Messiah expected by the Jews was God;"

Where do you get your information from? The Jews were not expecting God they were expecting another Moses-like figure. I read Romans chapters 5-8 and the gist of it is God is number one and Jesus is through whom you need to go to gain God's grace.

what is the definition of a christian?

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