For those not sick to death of talking about this...607 BCE

by Swamboozled 601 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Arthur

  ThirdWitness,

  Don't forget to count this time on your field service slip and all of your individual posts as return visits.
• 

  Ade

  ask them to read through Zechariah with you, the first few chapters. Then point out its very interesting where the conversation between the angel and GOD speaks of his people having been captive for 70 years. then ask them what date zechariah was written. take them to the back of THEIR OWN bible to check the date ( approx 518 ) , then ask them to explain 607 to you lol. hmmmm its that 20 year thing again . also ask the average lifespan of people back then. because using their 607 date the average person must have lived to be over 100 years old ( most unlikely ) compared to using the 587 date gives an average age of 80 years old. you could try and get KLASSENS CHRONOLOGY of the bible and gentile times reconsidered the babylonians by H.W.F Saggs and apparently their is now more evidence to show nebuchadrezzars reigning dates than to support the 539 date. remember its been many years since the watchtower started all this nonsense and thousands of business documents and other items have been uncovered/excavated. all the best Ade
• 

  Goldminer

  My wife thought these articles were just great.Then I told her that for some reason the jw who wrote omitted Jeremiah 25:12-"And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon,is the utterance of Jehovah..."

  When did Jehovah call the king of Babylon to account: 539 bce

  Count back 70 years now like you do with 537: 609 bce

  Now it's possible the 70 years of servitude began in 609 bce,there is still no concrete proof that the temple was destroyed in 607 bce.

  End of argument.

  Goldminer
• 

  moomanchu

  Don't forget to count this time on your field service slip and all of your individual posts as return visits.

  WOW didn't think about this If I was a dubber yet I could be a regular pioneer just being on this site.

  Could you count all your time or just the time actually typing? I guess you could have a stop watch on your desk. Hey if you sucked at typing you would get even more hours.

  This is great idea for dupped dubs.
• 

  thirdwitness

  I see still no answer from anyone explaining the 40 year desolation.

  One person uses Jeremiah 25:12-"And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon,is the utterance of Jehovah..."

  What would be nice is if you would quote the whole scripture to show what would happen after the 70 years was fulfilled. Here it is: 12 “‘And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·de´ans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.

  Babylon was not made a desolate waste in 539. This came later. But just as prophecied it happened after the 70 years was fulfilled.
• 

  thirdwitness

  Zechariah: Did the seventy years continue?

  T here is yet another way some try to explain away their unworkable secular chronology. Some are aware of the problems in placing the start of the 70 years at an earlier time, namely 20 years before Jerusalem was destroyed. Hence, instead they make a different claim: that the 70 years of desolation ended 20 years after Jerusalem became re-inhabited! —See the accompanying chart for a comparason with Biblical chronology.
  Click to enlarge

  The first thing you may notice about such a theory is that it totally and utterly contradicts the first theory we have been talking about – the idea that the desolation began in the 3rd year of Jehoiakim, with the fictitious exile they claim happened in that year. Surely, you would think, that apostates are sharply divided about what “actually” happened.

  You would be wrong. The same people use both arguments – while fully aware that both theories contradict one another, and therefore they are, in fact, contradicting themselves. The reason is that they have one goal: to attack the Watchtower Society and Jehovah's Witnesses. They couldn't care less how the 70 year prophecy was (or was not) fulfilled, they don't care about any pursuit of truth (although they may put on a false piety pf searching for ‘truth’). The only important thing is that the Watchtower Society is “proved” wrong, and little else matters. That is why they openly contradict themselves.

  The claim is based in these two verses of Zechariah which, when taken out of context, seem to support their idea. “So the angel of Jehovah answered and said: “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years ?” ( Zechariah 1:12 Zechariah 1:12 ) “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years , did you really fast to me, even me?” – Zechariah 7:5 Zechariah 7:5

  Those words were said between 520 and 518 BCE, almost 70 years after Jerusalem was destroyed in the secular time-line. Hence, apostates can claim that 587 was the true date of Jerusalem's destruction, and that the foretold 70 years was still continuing according to those verses above.

  However, apostates often take scriptures out of context, and this is no exception.

  At the start of Zechariah, Jehovah warns the repatriated people not to become like their evicted ancestors, who refused to listen and were punished. They do, in fact, need to show zeal for Jehovah and complete the rebuilding of the temple.

  Next, Zechariah has a vision where men on horses walk about the earth. They report back saying, “We have walked about in the earth, and, look! the whole earth is sitting still and having no disturbance.” Yes, the nations are currently quiet. They are not concerned about the rebuilding of Jehovah's temple, mainly because it isn't happening. The Jews are being lazy and neglecting the work. There is a fear they may become just like their forefathers.

  That is when the angel of Jehovah asks God, “O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years?”

  Stop and think about this statement. Doesn't it seem odd that the angel would ask Jehovah “how long”, when the exact length of time had already been determined, namely 70 years? The only possible reason to ask such a rhetorical question is because the 70 years had already ended. Yet, by all appearances Jerusalem was still in a partially desolated and ruined place in desperate need of rebuilding, indeed the temple was still not completed!

  In other words, were the 70 years of desolation not enough? Will Jehovah continue withholding his favor, just as he did during the 70 years of desolation? Indeed, “O Jehovah, how long...?”

  Jehovah himself answers the angel's question. he says, “I have been jealous for Jerusalem and for Zion with great jealousy. With great indignation I am feeling indignant against the nations that are at ease... My own house will be built in her... My cities will yet overflow with goodness” Yes, Jehovah will show favor Jerusalem and the temple will be rebuilt and blessings will flow to God's people.

  Now let's take a wider look at the verse in Zechariah chapter 7.

  Throughout the 70 years of desolation, and since the repatriation, the Jews have kept festivals of fasting, commemorating their sorrow over the destruction of Jerusalem. One day, men from the city of Bethel come to the prophet Zechariah and ask, “Shall [we the people of Bethel] weep in the fifth month, practicing an abstinence, the way I have done these O how many years?” Notice that they do not specify that it was 70 years only. For the commemoration had continued on now for an additional 17 years.

  The answer then comes from Jehovah in verses 5 to 7, “Say to all the people of the land and to the priests, ‘When you fasted and there was a wailing in the fifth month and in the seventh month, and this for seventy years , did you really fast to me, even me? And when you would eat and when you would drink, were not you the ones doing the eating, and were not you the ones doing the drinking?” Clearly Jehovah is talking of the past, “when” they fasted during the “seventy years”. The 70 years was not continuing, although their fasting in the same manner had continued just the same.

  Jehovah continues, “Should you not obey the words that Jehovah called out by means of the former prophets, while Jerusalem happened to be inhabited, and at ease, with her cities all around her". Jehovah's words are merely pointing out how much better obedience in the first place would have been than the later fasting over the calamity.

  Notice that God's words actually takes them back in time and reminds them that if they had simply been obedient when the land was still inhabited before the calamity, then the 70 years of desolation would not have occurred. If the the fastings and commemorations were really for Jehovah rather than their own sorrow, they would be obedient. The rest of the chapter reminds them of just why the desolation came upon them.

  When we look at the context, coupled with the previous information that the land was to be desolated, uninhabited, ruined, and a wilderness for 70 years, we can see that the 70 year desolation was not continuing. It ended when they Jews were repatriated in 537 BCE, and began when Jerusalem was destroyed 70 years earlier in 607 BCE.

  • This theory contradicts the previous ones.
  • The context of the verses show the 70 years were in the past.

  But now by changing the subject you are getting off the topic of the 40 year desolation of egypt which no one seems to have an answer for. Lets do this. Lets make the 40 year desolation a topic by itself.
• 

  Goldminer

  All I was proving was that the 70 years ended in 539 bce and not in 537 bce like you jw apologists in watchtower denial want to believe.We all know that Babylon was prophesied to be a desolate waste to time indefinite.That was not the issue.

  Btw,this is one of the most stupid WT doctrines I've ever seen.If it was so simple,the WTS would have explained it a long time ago but even they can't do it because they know that secular history doesn't agree with WT doctrine.

  Goldminer
• 

  thirdwitness

  All I was proving was that the 70 years ended in 539 bce and not in 537 bce like you jw apologists in watchtower denial want to believe.We all know that Babylon was prophesied to be a desolate waste to time indefinite.That was not the issue.

  Sorry, but you did not prove that at all. You proved that Babylon would be a desolated wasteland sometime after the 70 years expired which it did become. That is all the prophecy proves.

  And for the ones who claim that the same evidence that proves 539 also proves 587. This is incorrect. To arrive at 539 persian kings are involved. To arrive at 587, the reigns of Babylonian kings are involved.
• 

  Qcmbr

  The whole argument is bonkers anyway - the issue to me is not 607/587/586 but actually who cares? The reading of Daniel does not fix any date when Jesus would come/reign or anything since if it did Jesus would be lying. When Jesus claimed He was the Messiah He didn't get all technical and pull out mathematical buffoonery to prove His messiahship. When He comes again , visibly, he won't stop half way down and have a discussion about how the dating of Daniel and the age of the destruction of Jerusalem proves that He is the one. Only a religion grasping for legitemacy applies mathematical chicanery with scriptures to prove itself. Jesus didn't waste His time on it and neither would His Kingdom - proof is in actions not fractions.
• 

  ellderwho

  And for the ones who claim that the same evidence that proves 539 also proves 587. This is incorrect. To arrive at 539 persian kings are involved. To arrive at 587, the reigns of Babylonian kings are involved.

  Hey third, produce a workable Babylonian kings list and you'll quite alot of posters'

  EW