Thank you Alan and company
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AlanF
In his post # 375 on page 61 of this thread, thirdwitness wrote:
: Auldsoul said: It matters not whether you assert that "every eye will see him" is figurative. It still would be earthwide recognition of an event, seeing it for what it is and for what it means for the earth. This event would not require preachers. This event did not happen in 1914. Down to our day the JW conjecture that "occurred" in 1914 is still not recognized by the majority of the world.
: You are mixed up. I see that you have been taken in by AlanF's wrong thinking that JWs believe that Rev 1:7 is about 1914.
I demonstrated in my post # 4575 on page 61 of this thread that your claim here is a lie. I never said that.
: As I have pointed out over and over again Revelation 1:7 is not referring to 1914 and the start of Christ's parousia. It is referring to the final part of Christ's parousia, time of the destuction of the wicked when every eye will indeed see him when they are either destroyed or saved. Yes, this event will be seen by all.
: So your saying that Christ's parousia could not have begun in 1914 because every eye did not see it is bogus. The Bible easily shows you to be wrong that every eye would see Christ's arrival at the beginning of his parousia.
The fact that "every eye" did not see anything of the sort beginning in 1914 proves one of two things:
Either Jesus was wrong, or,
Jehovah's Witnesses are wrong about what Jesus said.
I think it's obvious which is the case.
: Remember this scripture: 2 Peter 3:3 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”
LOL! Peter was clearly telling his readers that they were already in "the last days" at the time he wrote. Note Peter's statement that "the last days" had already begun by Pentecost, shortly after Jesus' death. Here is Acts 2:14-21 rom the NIV:
14 Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, raised his voice and addressed the crowd: "Fellow Jews and all of you who live in Jerusalem, let me explain this to you; listen carefully to what I say. 15 These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21 And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.' . . ."I've pointed out this scripture before, but as usual you've ignored it.
Furthermore, such an argument is a logical fallacy known as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I could claim that if you deny that there's an invisible pink unicorn dancing around your head, that's proof that it's there. Then when you deny it, I exclaim, "See! You're in denial! That proves you've got one!"
: So there you have it. Most people would not recognize that Christ's parousia had begun and that we were living in the last days.
There's that invisible pink unicorn.
: This coincides with what Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is not coming the striking observableness."
Are you really so hard of understanding that you don't realize that the Watchtower Society has long taught that this was fulfilled before Jesus died?
: Why do you think a sign was needed anyway?
Once again, Jesus said nothing about the sort of "composite sign" that JWs are so fond of. Indeed, he warned against thinking of common catastrophes as signs.
AlanF
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thirdwitness
auldsoul: Nothing in the Bible ties the presence of the Son of man to the arrival of the kingdom of God. That is a fiction of JWs, not a teaching of the Bible.
I like it when you make statements that are easily shown from the Bible to be false. It makes it so much easier for everyone to see how apostates want to mislead you with non truths. Let me show you AGAIN.
Lets see if you can connect the dots. I will highlight the key points in red to help you out.
Matt 24: While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” ... 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
Luke 21 adds; 11 ...and in one place after another pestilences and food shortages;
Enter Revelation 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; (Rev 19:11) and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: “A quart of wheat for a de·nar´i·us, and three quarts of barley for a de·nar´i·us; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.”
7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Ha´des was closely following him. And authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Did you note? Christ's arrival in his presence would be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence. Christ's receiving crown was to be followed by great war, food shortages, pestilence.
Rev 12: 9 So down the great dragon was hurled,... 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, ... 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU , having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”
Note: first God's kingdom comes to pass then woe for the earth. Woe such as great war, food shortages, pestilence.
Psalms 110: 1 The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”2 The rod of your strength Jehovah will send out of Zion, [saying:]
“Go subduing in the midst of your enemies.”Heb 10:12: sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from then on awaiting until his enemies should be placed as a stool for his feet.
Luke 21:24: Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.
Ezekiel 21:26: ‘Remove the turban, and lift off the crown (607--Zedekiah removed). This will not be the same. Put on high even what is low, and bring low even the high one. 27 A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I shall make it. As for this also, it will certainly become no [one’s] until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give [it] to him.’
Daniel 4:17: that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that to the one whom he wants to, he gives it and he sets up over it even the lowliest one of mankind.”
God's kingdom was trampled on until the Gentile times ended in 1914 after the 2520 years. At that time God's kingdom was no longer under the feet of the enemies but rather the role was reversed and now the enemies were a stool for Jesus' feet.
Luke 21: 29 With that he spoke an illustration to them: “Note the fig tree and all the other trees: 30 When they are already in the bud, by observing it YOU know for yourselves that now the summer is near. 31 In this way YOU also, when YOU see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near.
Compare this to Matt 24: 32 “Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, YOU know that summer is near. 33 Likewise also YOU , when YOU see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.
Matthew 25: 10 While they were going off to buy, the bridegroom arrived, and the virgins that were ready went in with him to the marriage feast; and the door was shut.
When Christ shuts the door it means it is too late and that is the time when God's kingdom take action to destroy its enemies. When you see the sign of Christ's presence you should know that the kingdom's coming at Armageddon to destroy the wicked is near.
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AlanF
Once again, thirdwitness: Your entire post # 376 on this page is negated by one simple fact: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes. He directly warned people NOT to view such traditional Jewish apocalyptic signs as signs of his parousia. Why? Because they have always been so commonplace.
AlanF
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DannyHaszard
Once again, thirdwitness: Your entire post # 376 on this page is negated by one simple fact: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes. He directly warned people NOT to view such traditional Jewish apocalyptic signs as signs of his parousia. Why? Because they have always been so commonplace.
AlanF
That's it,the WT's interpretative take is inverted
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thirdwitness
DannyH said: Thank you Alan and company I agree 100 percent. Thank you so much for showing us that try as hard as you can, you just cannot disprove that Christ's parousia and kingdom began in 1914 or that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607.
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thirdwitness
AlanF: Jesus did not give any "signs" of his parousia that included earthquakes, famine, pestilence, war, or any other catastrophes
alrighty then. Lets rip Matthew 24 and Revelation 6 out of our Bible and replace it with AlanF 24: 3 While he was sitting upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately, saying: “Tell us, When will these things be, and what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?”
7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things have nothing to do with the sign of my presence.
AlanF 6: 2 And I saw, and, look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was already on his head given him in 33CE, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest.
3 And when he opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say: “Come!” 4 And another did not come forth, not even a fiery-colored horse; and there was granted not to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and not even a great sword was given him.
5 And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: “Come!” And I saw, and, look! not a black horse; and the one not seated upon it did not have a pair of scales in his hand.
7 And when he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say: “Come!” 8 And I saw, and, look! not a pale horse; no one named Death. And no authority was given them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with a long sword and with food shortage and with deadly plague and by the wild beasts of the earth.
I am sorry I ever doubted your abilities at understanding, interpreting, and explaining the Bible. I am writing my letter of disassociation tomorrow and joining you as an atheist or whatever you call yourself who don't believe the Bible is inspired and don't believe the true God is Jehovah. Thanks so much for enlightening me. I am so glad that now I can go bar hopping, partying, fornicating, using drugs, smoking, and the like, no longer burdened by those foolish teachings and morals of the Bible and JWs.
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badboy
20,600 VIEWS!
THIS THREAD IS GOING PLACES!
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DannyHaszard
William Miller JW ground zero
In a nutshell Jehovah's Witnesses R Millerites and thousands of non apostate scholarly works say so
JW ARE AN ADVENTIST MILLERITE SPIN-OFF click for thousand links
The Millerites: Armageddon (History Channel) 4 min clip
modem (low bandwidth) version
DSl/Cable (high bandwidth) version
The History Channel say's so too.
Danny Haszard Bangor Maine
"Thirdwitness" said~ Thank you so much for showing us that try as hard as you can, you just cannot disprove that Christ's parousia and kingdom ;began in 1914 or that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607
...As hard as the Watchtower/Jehovah's Witness apologist tries he can not shake off his Millerite 1914 origins. -
thirdwitness
I think I might have called on AlanF in field service one time. I was showing him about how the earth would not be destroyed. And I was reasoning with him on 2 Peter 3 where it shows that the world in Noah's day was destroyed. I reasoned with him that we are still on the same planet earth so just like in Noah's day it will be the same in our day. It is not the planet earth itself that will be destroyed but rather the ungodly men. His reply was: How do you know that the water didn't get so high that Noah ended up on a different planet? Was that you, AlanF? I wonder because his reasoning abilities on the Bible is very similar to that man I met in field service.
