thirdwitless wrote:
:: I challenged you on this claim about "presence". Where is your response?
:: Again, "presence" is a wrong translation of parousia in Matthew 24:3. No modern scholars agree with the Watchtower Society on this translation. Furthermore, the Society's 1997 exposition on it is self-contradictory and misrepresents source references.
The 1997 date in the above should be corrected to 1996.
: I did not answer because I figured you being the all wise all knowing Guru that you are already knew what parousia meant.
Of course I do. Why do you think I challenged you, you twit?
: I am a little shocked at you here saying that no modern scholars agree with the WTS translation.
I'm not the least bit shocked that you say that. After all, pretty much everything you know on "Bible topics" is derived from Watchtower literature -- literature that deliberately fails to point out relevant information when such disproves the thesis at hand.
: A quick google proves that to be an inaccurate statement.
Googling for data has its place, but in most cases does not lead to authoritative scholarly sources. And we will see that you did not even understand the references you looked up.
: Not that it matters because just because the majority might believe something doesn't make it truth. For example, the Trinity.
Irrelevant. A topic stands or falls on its own. We're not talking about proving things here by reference to some authority's opinion, but by the weight of authoritative arguments that are based on all available data. The very same data that you're going to find out the Society has grossly misrepresented.
: Anyway notice just two quick simple sources:
: wikipedia: The term Parousia, Greek for "appearance and subsequent presence with" (in the ancient world referring to official visits by royalty) is also used to describe this event.
You've already managed to misrepresent a source reference as well as the Watchtower's position on the matter. First, the Society clearly states:
w96 8/15 p. 11 Jesus’ Coming or Jesus’ Presence--Which?
Pointedly, pa·rou·si´a means "presence."Rbi8 pp. 1576-1577 5B Christ’s Presence (Parousia)
The Greek noun pa·rou·si´a literally means a "being alongside." . . . From the contrast that is made between the presence and the absence of Paul both in 2Co 10:10, 11 and in Php 2:12, the meaning of pa·rou·si´a is plain.it-2 pp. 676-677 Presence
The Greek word from which "presence" is translated is pa·rou·si´a, formed from pa·ra´ (alongside) and ou·si´a (being; derived from ei·mi´, meaning "be"). Hence, pa·rou·si´a means, literally, "being alongside," that is, a "presence." . . . Many translations vary their renderings of this word. While translating pa·rou·si´a as "presence" in some texts, they more frequently render it as "coming." This has been the basis for the expression "second coming" or "second advent" (adventus ["advent" or "coming"] being the Latin Vulgate translation of pa·rou·si´a at Mt 24:3) with regard to Christ Jesus. While Jesus’ presence of necessity implies his arrival at the place where he is present, the translation of pa·rou·si´a by "coming" places all the emphasis on the arrival and obscures the subsequent presence that follows the arrival. Though allowing for both "arrival" and "presence" as translations of pa·rou·si´a, lexicographers generally acknowledge that the presence of the person is the principal idea conveyed by the word.
These comments clearly do not allow for the meaning "appearance and subsequent presence with" because that is the definition of the English words "coming", "arrival" and "advent". They clearly state that the focus of parousia is on the presence, not on the appearance. So you don't even understand what you've read in the Wikipedia article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Coming ).
Second, the Wikipedia article clearly states what the accepted implications of "appearance and subsequent presence with" are:
The Second Coming or Second Advent refers to the Christian belief in the return of Jesus to fulfill the rest of Messianic prophecy. Views about the Second Coming vary among different Christian denominations, and have influenced other religions as well. The term Parousia, Greek for "appearance and subsequent presence with" (in the ancient world referring to official visits by royalty) is also used to describe this event. The Second Coming is an important component of Christian eschatology, the theology concerning the final events and ultimate purposes of the world.
So again you've either ignored or failed to understand what you've read, and therefore falsely believe you've proved your case.
You next referred to the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary ( http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/parousia ):
Parousia
Main Entry: Par·ou·sia
Pronunciation: "pär-ü-'sE-&, p&-'rü-zE-&
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek, literally, presence, from paront-, parOn, present participle of pareinai to be present, from para- + einai to be
This is an incomplete definition -- see below for scholarly source references that show the full range of meaning for parousia.
You also failed to type in an important further reference that appeared in the Merriam-Webster reference, namely, to SECOND COMING. Clicking on that link immediately leads to another link to an Online Encyclopaedia Britannica article (unfortunately, one must subscribe to Britannica Online to see such articles, but a free 7-day trial subscription is available) on the "Second Coming" ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9066515 ) which states:
also called Second Advent, or Parousia, in Christianity, the future return of Christ in glory, when it is understood that he will set up his kingdom, judge his enemies, and reward the faithful, living and dead. Early Christians believed the Advent to be imminent (see millennium), and those who have later professed what is known as Adventism have believed that the visible appearance of Jesus may occur at any moment and that Christians should be ever ready for it. Such believers find evidence for the Second Coming in the Gospels (Matthew 24,25; Mark 13; Luke 21:5-26; John 14:25-29), in the Book of Revelations, and in other biblical and traditional sources.
Once again, a source reference that you've given disproves your claim.
Finally, with reference to Googling for data, I noted that every entry I looked at disproves the Society's claims about the precise meaning of parousia.
Now let's see what real scholarly references show as the meaning of parousia.
One definition of parousia is the "arrival or visit of a king." According to the New Testament, the arrival of Christ in glory will certainly be the "arrival or visit of a king," and the general consensus among modern scholars is that the New Testament uses parousia in this way with reference to the second coming of Christ, as any modern Greek lexicon will show. Contrary to the Society’s claim, then, parousia does not necessarily have the primary meaning "presence" in Matthew 24:3. The following are among the best source references to show what parousia really means:
The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised (Harold K. Moulton, Zondervan Publishing House, 1978) indicates on p. 311 that parousia is related to pareimi, which has various meanings including to be beside, to be present, to be come (p. 307). For parousia it gives the meanings presence, a coming, arrival, advent, and gives Matt. 24:3, 27, 37, 39 as examples of the latter three.
Bauer’s Greek-English Lexicon (2nd edition, 1979) says that parousia has the meanings “coming, advent as the first stage in presence” (p. 629) and gives several references to ancient Greek literature. It gives Matt. 24:3 as an example of this use “in a special, technical sense.” It says further: “The use of parousia as a technical term has developed in two directions. On the one hand the word served as a cult expression for the coming of a hidden divinity, who makes his presence felt by a revelation of his power, or whose presence is celebrated in the cult… On the other hand, parousia became the official term for a visit of a person of high rank, especially of kings and emperors visiting a province… These two technical expressions can approach each other closely in meaning, can shade off into one another, or even coincide.”
Liddell & Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (p. 1343) gives “Advent” as the meaning in each instance in Matthew.
Expository Dictionary of Bible Words (Lawrence O. Richards, Zondervan Publishing House, 1985, p. 65) says of parousia that “the word means ‘presence’ or ‘coming’ and emphasizes both the idea of ‘being there’ and the idea of ‘having come.’ . . . Parousia is found four times in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:3,27,37,39). The context makes it clear that Jesus’ initial appearing is intended, for the disciples asked how they would recognize the sign of his coming. Jesus explains that he will appear suddenly (v. 27), unexpectedly (v. 37), and with devastating impact on those who do not believe (v. 39). Yet the emphasis in the total passage (Mt 24–25) is not on the meaning of the second coming but on the fact that, until Jesus does come, we are to watch, committing ourselves to serve our absent Lord (cf. the four illustrations in Mt 24:42–25:46).”
Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (p. 490) gives Matt. 24:3 as an example of the meaning “the presence of one coming, hence the coming, arrival, advent.”
The New Englishmen’s Greek Concordance and Lexicon, Hendrickson Publishers, 1982, p. 680.
The New Analytical Greek Lexicon, Wesley J. Perschbacher, Ed., Hendrickson Publishers, 1990, p. 315.
Moving on:
: Also Young's Literal translation of the Bible reads: Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'
: OOOps there's one Bible scholar that must agree with the new world translation.
LOL! Obviously you're so ignorant of the references you pull from Watchtower literature that you don't that Young's was first published in 1862, and that modern scholars consider many of Young's renderings defective in light of discoveries subsequent to Young's translation. Remember that I said: "No modern scholars agree with the Watchtower Society on this translation."
: Anyway, it doesn't disprove that 7 times were 2520 years beginning from the desolation of Jerusalem.
It disproves the notion of an extended invisible presence. That is part and parcel of the Watchtower's "Gentile times" doctrine.
There's a lot more to come on this subject.
AlanF