thirdwitness,
Here's another yes or no question which will, per usual, evoke another four paragraphs of explanation from you: Can Jehovah's sovereignty be termed "universal" if there is something over which he does not have sovereignty?
AuldSoul
The Gentiles Times Reconsidered--Again but this Time By Using the Bible
by thirdwitness 1380 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AlanF
thirdwitless wrote:
: If there is nothing new to bring up then I will sit back and wait. I believe all questions have been answered.
Are you really that stupid? Or are you just a liar?
Your 'answers' so far have been largely shown to be a pile of manure. You have failed to answer the majority of many poster's challenges -- including mine. I have pointed out in excruciating detail where most of your claims on one topic are based on nothing but supposition, conjecture, circular argumentation and special pleading.
Here are two challenges of crucial importance to your claims about the "Gentile times":
Since the Jews did not return to Judah in 537 B.C., Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 B.C. and the Watchtower's "Gentile times" chronology is destroyed, making the thesis of your thread here moot.
Since Genesis and Exodus together agree that the universe was created in six days, but the Society agrees with science that it was created some 15 billion years ago, how can you rationally claim that anything the Society teaches -- most particularly the "Gentile times" chronology -- that disagrees with established science is just "sticking to the Bible"?
AlanF
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hillary_step
ThirdWitness,
I ( ThirdWitness ) believe that it is impossible for all the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to have been fulfilled by the second fall of Jerusalem in 70CE because the man of lawlessness was not yet fully revealed, Jesus had not yet secured kingly power and rewarded the faithful, destroying the unfaithful, there was not a Great Tribulation greater than all tribulations before it, Revelation was written after 70 CE(please save your breath about the theory of how it was written before 70 CE), and so much more I could say. But I think this is enough.
Yes, this the answer I was expecting. What a predictable response for an ethicaly bankrup 'team' of researchers.
So all your reasons are totally tied in with what the WTS actually interprets the Bible to mean in these prophecies. For example, all the bolded statements which make up your 'rebuttal' are not intepreted in the way the WTS inteprets them by other religious bodies, including the crackpot Adventists, as well as mainstream Christianity.
Your 'understanding' of the Bible is totally dependent on WTS thinking - would you agree with this?
Now, you mention the dating of the book of Revelation, which preterists contend was written before 70CE and present a number of lines of evidence to support this. You have admitted to this board that you know little if anything about preterism and subsequently these compelling lines of evidence presented as proof of a pre 70CE writing for the Book of Revelation. You note :
(please save your breath about the theory of how it was written before 70 CE),
but provide no evidence whatsoever for you for your comment. You are obviously not even aware that the post 70CE dating of the book of Revelation has even been challenged, because you do not research outside WTS publications. Have you for example read Kenneth Gentry's work on the subject? Did you know that the date of the Revealtion was disputed at all?
Are you prepared to enter a debate regarding the dating of the Book Of Revelation?
Now, you have tried to avoid answering other very important questions that are on topic, presumably hoping that your deperate little attemps at deflection will work on XJW's as well as they do with JW's. Brother, you have made a grave error of judgement. I am repeating these questions now, so that you cannot squirm and slide from their implications.
Do you accept, as does the WTS that the apostles Peter, Paul, John and James were expecting the 'culmination of all things' in their lifetime?
Do you believe that one can only understand prophetic elements of the Bible, such as Daniel, by means of the Holy Spirit, or can accurate conclusions be reached even by academic means only?
In the interests of the welfare of lurking JW's, I am starting a new thread inviting all those whose questions you have dared not answer to list these questions. This should prove once and for all that you are incapable of answering questions which punch serious holes in your theology and put to rest all your claims that yourself, and your team of withered cronies have had any success whatsoever in upholding WTS theology in tha face of your intellectual betters.
HS
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Hellrider
Thirdwitness:
I believe all questions have been answered.; Many of them more than once.
You know that that is a LIE. You have answered almost nothing. When someone directs arguments against your WTS-theories, you just repeat your original post. That is not the same as answering questions. You certainly haven`t answered any of my arguments. You are either extremely arrogant, not very bright, or a combination of the two. Probably the latter. God, you are an annoying little troll, aren`t you.
I ( ThirdWitness ) believe that it is impossible for all the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation to have been fulfilled by the second fall of Jerusalem in 70CE because__________________________________ I did not answer this because it is too simple. I guess I could bring forth the kindergarden class to answer it. It is off topic and I have no interest as I have said in reteaching the basic doctrines of the bible to those who should already know them but have returned to the vomituous teachings of Christendom or the endless philosophies of men.
...Oh, but the "vomitious teachings of christendom" is a part of this, whether you like it or not. It was "vomitious christendom" that established the canon used in the Bible today, including the NWT. It was "vomitious christendom" that spread christianity thruout the world even to the Americas, so that 1800 years AD, some shittly little sect of selfprofessed "annointed" could start the movement now known as "Jehovahs Witnesses". As for the point above: True scholars know that the word "messiah" means something different today than what it meant 2000 years ago. The WTS, in its endless lack of true scholarship or even basic understanding of the hebrew and greek languages, have never understood this. As a consequense, they see everything in the OT as pointing towards the coming of the Messiah (whos name has become synonymious with the term), Jesus Christ. You don`t need to interpret everything in the Bible as pointing towards Jesus Christ, a "spiritual Israel", or something that is to happen 2000 years into the future. Often, there is an immediate fulfillment of the prophecies, and it` s often pretty simple. But of course,this does not fit into the JW-daydream of being the only ones to survive the coming apocalypse, and the daydream of having "the Truth".
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jayhawk1
AlanF said,
thirdwitless wrote:
: If there is nothing new to bring up then I will sit back and wait. I believe all questions have been answered.
Are you really that stupid? Or are you just a liar?
Based on what Witless has replied to me so far, I am betting a little of both. Witless is dishonest for certain and now I'm beginning to lean towards believing he is not too bright either. It is one thing to not agree or offer a different side to a debate. It is quite another to avoid most questions and then say, "I believe all questions have been answered."
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jayhawk1
Hillary Step said,
In the interests of the welfare of lurking JW's, I am starting a new thread inviting all those whose questions you have dared not answer to list these questions. This should prove once and for all that you are incapable of answering questions which punch serious holes in your theology and put to rest all your claims that yourself, and your team of withered cronies have had any success whatsoever in upholding WTS theology in tha face of your intellectual betters.
I had a few basic questions I figured Witless would be able to answer, but so far, getting a strait answer has proved to be hard to come by.
1. How is it that Tyre's desolation for all eternity has a figurative fulfillment and yet Egypt's 40 year desolation is supposed to be a literal fulfillment when Egypt and Babylon can't conferm the latter ever happening.
2. What is the differences between a figurative prophecy and a literal one when reading one in the Bible? How can they be interpreted accurately? How is one to know which is which?
3. How is the Day for a Year rule only used for some prophecies and not others? How is one to know when to use it and when not to?
4. How do we know all prophecies in the Book of Daniel apply to the Messiah? In particular the tree one that is talking about Nebuchadnezzar, why should it also be applied to the Messiah? Would this make the Messiah the Greater Nebuchadnezzar?
If I think of any other questions, you know I'll post them.
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thirdwitness
Jayhawk: Now, can I assume you are unable to answer? Does this mean the Prophecies in Daniel do not apply to the Messiah?
You are joking right. I guess it is not good enough for you to show you that every single prophecy of Daniel concludes with God's Kingdom or the Messiah's appearance. You want a statement from Daniel at the beginning or end of the book saying: Attention readers: These writings that I have just penned are all about the Messiah and God's Kingdom in case you didn't notice.
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thirdwitness
Hillarystep, Sorry not interested in such a debate that is off topic.
Jayhawk, all those questions you ask have been thoroughly answered. Reread the thread and you will find them. Do you just want me to keep repeating the same things over and over again?
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thirdwitness
Are we thru with the seven times being 2520 years or are there new points to be brought up?
Not interested in reteaching AlanF why Genesis days are not literally 24 hours. You should know this already if you were ever a JW. It is covered in WT publications numerous times. Not interested in discussing preterists. There viewpoint has been debunked in one sentence. We already covered the 40 year desolation of Egypt. Remember thats the one where some said I lied about their arguments and I then quoted them word for word clearly establishing what their arguments were and that I did not lie.
I do have one more point that AlanF brought up about parousia or presence.
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jayhawk1
No sir, I am not joking. And yes something that says the prophecies have a greater fulfillment is what I need to see. Otherwise a prophecy about Nebuchadnezzar begins and ends with Nebuchadnezzar.
Regarding you already answering the questions I listed. I have read it, and you have not answered it. You constantly posting the same old stuff without anything to back it up is just more worthless postings. What you want to do is say, "I have already answered that!" without actually answering anything. You have not proved a thing, all you have posted is simply your own beliefs.
I will continue to wait for direct answers that are intelligent and precise, with both biblical and historical facts. When you produce them, then I will quit asking. In other words, enough with the circular logic that leads nowhere. Show me undeniable proof.