not since Harding

by teejay 104 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    The CEO of most successful corporations, rarely if ever get their hands dirty with mundane everyday affairs of business. They all seem to be of a special breed, people that by just their presence in the room, inspires other's to do their best. Even just a nod from these guys, can perk up the troops, let alone special attention offered.

    'mornin', my Friend. Point taken, and you are right. I'm sure you have seen some of the reports about GE's retiring CEO Jack Welch. He has the qualities you mention, of inspiring others to do their best. You have me nodding in silent agreement, buddy.

    Someone said just the other day that one of the reasons for the oversights, mistakes, and blunders in the intelligence and armed services community over the years is that the various organizations have been a bit too vain, too worried about which one of them would get the credit. There's plenty of evidence to support that statement. Many separate organizations new bits and pieces of terrorists and their activities, but up till now they have been selfish about what they had, unwilling to share with others, putting all the info in one place in order to create a more composite, complete picture.

    Perhaps now is the time for an expert delegator, and I mean that seriously. It matters not one bit who gets the credit for accomplishment now -- we freekin' need some RESULTS. America is in real trouble, and we need the best, wherever it comes from -- to hell with who gets the credit.

    Peace
    tj

  • teejay
    teejay

    Excellent comments, Larc.

    It is not the job of the executive in business and government to "know all the details", but to have a vision and see a mission. Carter was one of our brightes, nicest, humane Presidents. He also got lost in detail and did not have a vision he could articulate. By contrast JFK had such a vision and could captivate the country and his own staff. On the Republican side, Reagon had a vision; Ford did not.

    All true, as history testifies. It may not be strong enough to say that 'I like Carter', as good of a man that he is, but he truly was a sorry prez. He just could not get his head out of the books and delegating was not a hallmark of his personality. JFK and Reagan, on the other hand, were true men of vision.

    I was sitting in front of the TV screen when Reagan spoke on the next-to-the-last night of the Republican National Convention in 1976 when Ford got the nomination. It was the most inspiring speech I'd ever heard. Beyond brilliant... ethereal, other-worldly. I've looked for the text of it online, I've looked for videos of it. The words he spoke then were as good as the best of prayers and if someone at one of the networks is wise and thinks of it, they will find a tape of it and play it now.

    Your comments relative to your experience of being on the task force were very timely, if not only to say interesting in general. I will try to digest what you said of different management types and the skills they need at a particular level and comment later.

    Unfortunately, Bush has inherited 8 years of neglect of our military, our intelligence community, and the security of our military secrets.

    I would not mind additional information, even a weblink, on this. As much as I admire Clinton and the good he accomplished for the country, it wouldn't bother me to learn of one of his major blunders.

    tj

  • ZazuWitts
    ZazuWitts

    Teejay,

    Even though you will see Zazu at the side, this is Larc. Zazu is my wife. I had to use her address because I reached my posting limits.

    I can not give you references to Clinton's egregous errors, because I learned it bits and pieces over time. I do know that some of our soldiers were so underpaid in the military that they collected food stamps. Clinton treated his military officers in the White House like servants. Clinton had distain for the military. Can I prove it? No I can't, but it fits his philosophy and his life style. Clinton was an example of a poor, very intelligent red neck that made it. He is a brilliant, carismatic man, with no values. Can I prove it. No, I can't, but the pattern of his life fits what I am saying. Why did Hillery put up with his shit? Because she is as cold and calculating as he is. The Clinton's sold the country a line of shit that we will live with for a long time. On another front. I saw a 30 minute docuementary as to how Clinton devastated our energy progam, which is a story of another day.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Larc,

    [I saw your preface where you said that you were "posted out." I checked the time and thought, "Damn, Larc, it's only 10 o'clock... A.M!!" I thought it was funny. This damn board can be addictive, eh?]

    -----------------

    I can not give you references to Clinton's egregous errors, because I learned it bits and pieces over time...

    The reason people shy away from political debates is clear -- I believe you are like me in that you have no interest in arguing, but these discussions generally head in that direction. The things you say about Clinton -- the soldiers who were poorly paid, the way he treated officers in the White House like servants, whether he had a disdain for the military, etc -- may all be true or they may have come to you through filters that you know nothing about. Or maybe you do know about. As with the impeachment debacle, everyone in Washington has an agenda, and what else is new. Newspaper and magazine writers are no different.

    Taking one of your charges as an example, I find it hard to believe that ANY President would disdain anyone charged with the responsibility of protecting said President's life as you say Clinton did. If it did happen, was it one incident involving one person, or was it a general practice? Did Clinton refuse to genuflect to the military who were used to being treated with deference, as Reagan and Bush may have? If so, did said military heads take offense? Did Clinton consider the housekeepers and cooks at the White House and Oval Office as worthy of the same level of honor and respect as members of the military that frequented there? There's evidence that he did, and vicious, unfair rumors may have been the result.

    We can argue all of this from now until the troops come home. Who knows? One thing we know for sure: the Republicans did nothing to hide their deep -- often personal -- hatred for the man. That, for me, explains many of the lies that have been told about him. I believe the inclusiveness he started also upset a cerain clique and still does. To his great credit, for eight years and even now, he was unfazed and unbending, largely due to having the backing of the majority of the citizenry, and that pissed the powers off even more.

    As a counterpoint, I thought about the level of 'greatness' that is generally accorded to JFK. Rum-runner Joe bought the office for his son (you know he did) using dubious tactics in connection with unions and the mob (weren't those one and the same back then?). Afterwards, JFK (and his brother) rewarded his benefactors by turning on them with the full weight of the U.S. Justice Dept. They weren't the only ones he betrayed.

    He betrayed American troops during the Bay of Pigs fiasco; he was very slow on the issue of Civil Rights (many historians say "slower than he should have been"), leaving the dirty work mostly to Johnson, who came through like a champ, to hell with what was politically "correct" at the time; he, Kennedy, led the U.S. into SE Asia, an economic morass with affects that have lasted 40 years. And there were other failures. All this, not to mention his horrible (non-existent) personal moral code that makes Clinton look like a Boy Scout.

    Most of this was unknown, or unvoiced, for years, but it's known NOW but that still doesn't keep his name, whenever the topic of Great President's come up in everyday conversations, from being spoken by someone.

    Back to Clinton: Economically, Clinton presided over a time unparalleled in American history, putting to an end the deficit that Reagan caused a decade earlier. When that is mentioned, Clinton-bashers are loathe to give him ANY credit for his vision, preferring instead to speak of the efforts of Congress. There were other high points of his Administration as well, but, as I said, we could be here a while, going back and forth.

    All of this does prompt a couple of provocative questions:

    What makes a good president?

    How much of what happens during any Administration -- good or bad -- can be laid at the President's feet?

    Now, those are two questions that I think are worthy of debate. I'll be taking a poli-sci class next semester.... maybe then I'll have a clue.

    tj

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Tj,

    May I suggest a good read for you? Take a look at the book by Gary Aldrich an FBI agent assinged in the White House, charged with the duty to security check all staff. You will be amazed at the blatant disdain shown by Clinton and his hand picked, toward anyone who tried to perform their duties in accord with long standing security proceedures.

    The book is titled "Unlimited Access" Regnery Publishing, Inc. Washington DC.

    It is no secret that he (Clinton) was litteraly despised be most of military brass, and a majority of the troops. Not just because of his youthful stand against the war, but his continued snubing of the military.

    I think you will have some new angles on this guy, that perhaps you have never considered.

    Either way, politics is politics, any discussion between two or more, is pretty sure to evoke two or more stands. HeHa so it goes.

  • larc
    larc

    Teejay,

    I agree that it is difficult not to see a President objectively because of our own filters. I think it is often difficult to get unfiltered, objective news. For the most part, I think that tv commentators are liberal, while many radio talk shows are decidedly conservative. I think one exception to this is a program, The O'Rielly Factor, on Fox News Network. He seems to be more objective and goes after anybody regardless of party affiliation. Some Republicans think he is a Democrate, and some Democrates think he is a Republican, which is good indicator that he is neither. I just learned about O'Reilly last December when I heard about his book with the same name as his tv show. His major premis is that the major issure is not Republican versus Democrate, but the very rich and powerful versus the rest of us. I was so impressed with his book that I gave one to each of my grown children for Christmas. I would highly recomment his book to anyone from teenagers to older adults.

    Regarding your comments about JFK, I would agree with you that he made many mistakes. I think we have a romantic nostalgia for him because of his charisma and his tragic death. Since was in office for such a short time, it is difficult to determine how effective he would have been over the long term.
    I have some other thoughts, but that is enough for now.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Danny,

    I did a cursory search on amazon of Gary Aldrich's book. The reviews I found ranged from "a real page turner here" to "Mostly, the book is full of petty complaints about the condition of the chief of staff's office and the fashion sense of Clinton staffers as opposed to that of the Bush staff." Interestingly, these two quotes come from the same person! A common remark among those who posted a high review was the honest revelation like the one that came from a reader in Tacoma who said, "I am biased - I don't believe in the leadership of the Democratic Party." Makes you wonder how they rated the book so high, eh? Not.

    Still, I'll check it out when it reaches the discount table at the bookstore if it's not there already.

    At http://www.gallup.com/poll/FromtheEd/ed0101.asp I found this:

    The public's estimation of Bill Clinton has also taken a roller coaster ride over the eight years of his administration. His lowest job approval was 37%, and his highest was 73%, a spread of 36 percentage points. The casual observer might assume that Clinton's low point came during his impeachment crisis. But totally to the contrary, Clinton's low point came just after he was inaugurated, in the summer of 1993 and his high point came smack in the middle of impeachment, in December 1998.

    Clinton, in fact, is finishing his term on a relatively high note. The latest job approval rating we have for him is 66% (December 15-17, 2000) and that is higher than any other president has had in December of his last year in office since FDR. The next highest rating in December of a president's last year in office was obtained by Ronald Reagan, who climbed back to 63% by December 1988, and Eisenhower, who had a rating of 59% in December 1960.

    [bold and underscore mine]

    I know Gallup Polls can be very subjective, but it appears that many Americans agree with my assessment of the man. The idea that I am part of a majority on anything is a bit discomforting, but in this case, I suffer the indignity -- one of the Greatest Presidents in history deserves that sacrifice.

    peace,
    todd

  • larc
    larc

    teejay,

    You assert that Clinton was one of our great presidents. What is the basis for that claim? Regarding the booming economy, I would assert that presidents of either party can not take credit for the economic cycles in business. Vast strides in technology and innovative corporations should get credit, in my opinion, not the governement. If anyone should get credit and blame for effecting the economy, it should be Greenspan, not the president. As a side note, the market decline began in March of 2000 while Clinton was presedent. Should he get the blame for this? If you believe that he is responsible for our boom times, he should also be responsible for the bust as well.

    On the negative side, under Clinton, the military and intelligence communities were depleted. Our security was so lax that the Chinese stole valuable military secrets. I think Clinton's policies allowed this to happen.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Larc,

    Clinton made his first, and probably most serious, mistake early in his first year when he took on the military, pledging to allow homosexuals into the armed services. Although the compromise of "don't ask, don't tell" was reached after a bitter debate among the military and conservatives, personally I believe the old boys never got over Clinton's mastery of the media and going to the people with his agenda. He refused to play their game, played his own, and won over and over again. Made 'em mad as hell and there wasn't a damn thing they could do about it.

    Now, as for his accomplishments, here's just a small number:

    Crime

    * The Brady Bill -- imposes a five-day waiting period on handgun purchases so that background checks can be done to help keep handguns away from criminals.

    * The Crime Bill -- he had pledged to put 100,000 new police officers on the street - the number of new cops eventually topped 110,000; made more offenses eligible for the death penalty; the "three-strikes-and-you're-out" provision; banned the manufacture of deadly assault weapons, while also protecting hunters' rights by exempting over 650 hunting rifles

    Families

    * Family and Medical Leave Act -- covers over 42 million Americans; offers workers up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-guaranteed leave for child birth, adoption, or personal or family illness.

    * Expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit to cut the taxes of 15 million families with incomes of $27,000 or less.

    * Ordered the U.S. Justice Department to conduct the first-ever crackdown on deadbeat parents including an Executive Order cracking down on "deadbeat dads" who were federal employees.

    Cutting Bureaucracy

    * Despite the bold talk of Republicans like Reagan who didn't come through, following the recommendations of the National Performance Review, he cut the federal bureaucracy by one quarter of a million jobs -- its lowest level since the early 60s, including the reduction of the White House staff by 25 percent (was Aldrich, author of Unlimited Access fame, one of them? <g>)

    Education

    * Under Clinton's Direct Student Loan program, students can borrow money directly from the government at a lower interest rate and with many flexible repayment options, including the option to repay with a percentage of their after-graduation salary. Taxpayers will save at least $4.3 billion over five years.

    * Clinton's Safe and Drug Free Schools and Community Act and the Safe Schools Act provide funding to schools to fight violence and drug abuse. Schools can use up to 25 percent of their funds to purchase metal detectors, develop safe zones, and hire school security personnel.

    Economic

    It's agreed on that his efforts domestically produced a historically strong economy, benefiting families across the board. No need to go into detail here, but here's one example of many:

    * Passed NAFTA. Exports to Mexico has risen 113 percent from the year before NAFTA was implemented.

    The Environment

    * Clinton's last budget asked for $42.5 billion in environmental spending, hailed by conservation groups as one of the most aggressive environmental budgets in years.

    * Worked in many areas to improve the environment, including the reduction of arsenic in the water supply and land conservation.

    * Removed a third of the national forest (58 million acres in 39 states) from logging land road building, and by extension gas and oil exploration (fought and since rescinded by Bush).

    [Bush, on the other hand, has shown a notedly blatant disregard for national and world environmental issues. He has been unequivocal in his support of big business to the detriment of the American people by rolling back campaign promises on clean air; reversing Clinton administration initiatives on drinking water; and promoting new oil exploration in previously protected regions.

    In March, just days after taking office, he rejected the Kyoto Treaty designed to reduce and clashed (in June) with European leaders in a debate over global warming. Only as a result of bad pr has Bush and his Party done an about face on some of these issues. Otherwise, their unabashed intent has been manifest.]

    World

    * Hosted the signing of the Israeli-Palestinian Declaration of Principles in September, 1993, and the signing of the Israeli-Jordan Washington Principles in July, 1994 -- historic agreements between the leaders of Israel and her Arab neighbors to settle differences by peaceful means.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Like I said, this is just a few of his accomplishments. Clinton was a great prez, and I'm not being facetious when I say that.

    Like it or not, he was more than "a good talker" as someone said. He has extreme intelligence, uncommon for a Commander in Chief, and with it, his legendary charisma, and his clear vision for where he thought the country ought to go, did a lot of good for a lot of people. If it weren't prohibited by the Constitution, I have no doubt that he'd be President right now. Beyond the reach of his conservative enemies -- long after they are dead and gone -- history will be very kind to him.

    Bush, on the other hand, has been given a lot of "don't-judge-him-so-harshly, he's-doin'-a-good-job" leeway, especially here lately due to the 'crisis.' When the record is examined carefully, however, his apparent dyslexia and sub-par intellect are the least of our worries. His record up to this point in time is pitiful. But, as has been said, we'll have to give him more time. Maybe he'll do SOMETHING other than helping his corporate buddies in the oil and gas, logging, and mining industries get richer or saying "Charge!!" from the comfort of the Oval Office. Let's hope so.

    You gotta hand it to him though: his approval rating since Tuesday has soared. Why that is is a mystery, in view of his lack of known activities other than news and press conferences, TV ads and psa s. Seems that in following the overwhelming productivity of Clinton, the American public expects little from the Golden Boy, and are proud of it. Whatever. I see little to cheer about.

    tj

    p.s. As far as blaming Clinton for the economic downturn in 2000, economists were warning of a market correction up to eighteen months before it happened but moves by the Administration forestalled its arrival. Also, Clinton can hardly be blamed for the softening in the tech industry, which helped to superficially shore up the market to begin with.

    On the negative side, under Clinton, the military and intelligence communities were depleted. Our security was so lax that the Chinese stole valuable military secrets. I think Clinton's policies allowed this to happen.
    I don't know about this... I will do some research. Where there budgetary constraints? One thing I know - intelligence gathering began to come less from people on the ground and more from satellites, wire taps and computer based technologies that allowed for tapping emails, etc. These techniques were seen to be more effective, and in many cases they probably were.

    And correct me if I'm wrong... without going into a debate on the Chinese, I believe the latest tragedy originated from the other direction, and reports suggest that as poor as Clinton supposedly left the intelligence gathering apparatus, there are accumulating reports that suggest that the Bush Administration was given ample warnings by the French and Israeli secret services, which were subsequently ignored.

    What good is intelligence if you ignore it? Oh... but I was talking about Bush.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    I LOVED this thread (may you all have peace)! Decided to stay out of it and just listen. You guys (ALL of you) are pretty awesome. I am greatly impressed. NOT with the 'politics' discussed, but... your 'interchange'... understanding... and comraderie.

    Teej, BigMan, DBear, larc, 'Saint, skally. et al.,... I have nothing but love... and the greatest admiration... for you in this thread.

    A slave of Christ (who DOES keep 'abreast' of... umm... 'things'... from time to time, 'cause after all, while I am no 'part' of the world, I have not yet been taken 'out' of it...)

    SJ

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