In the big scheme of things, Jesus'.... (page 2)

AlanF

I really have to chuckle at the inept responses of the Fundy types to the point raised. One implies, "Hey! Crucifixion is really nasty!" and ignores the problem raised. Another intones, "Ummm, crucifixion not so bad?", again ignoring the actual problem.

Listen you dumb Fundies -- the point raised is simple: In the big scheme of things, Jesus' suffering was not so bad. That doesn't mean that crucifixion isn't nasty. It doesn't imply that Jesus didn't suffer much. It does mean that any supposedly intelligent creature would have to be extremely stupid to trade off a few hours of extreme suffering against regaining the highest position in the universe (or whatever you trinitarians want to think about Jesus' position). Thus, in the long run, Jesus' suffering was trivial, and attempts to make it seem the ultimate sacrifice are just so much emotional claptrap.

AlanF

Black Man

Alan, you made me come out of lurker mode. You're so on-point with this topic.......

lisaBObeesa

Obviously, in the human scale of suffering, Jesus suffered right up there at the top of the charts. Knowing that it all would be over soon does not make the suffering less real. He suffered intense, prolonged pain, and then died, as have millions of other human beings on this planet.

Many people in the world have a hope of going to heaven or some such place after they die. If two people, an atheist and a believer, are suffering physically the same things and are about to die, is the believer’s physical suffering less because of their belief? Of course not. Suffering is suffering. Pain is pain.

Christ felt the pain and the suffering on the cross just like the thief at His side did. Jesus didn’t have some sort of ‘holy anesthetic.’

The reason what Jesus did is a big deal to Christians is that he volunteered for this awful suffering. That God came down and became one of US. He suffered like US. He showed us that death is not to be feared because He has power over it. He suffered and gave the world hope, that amazing hope that you think made his suffering worthless is precisely why Christians think it was a big deal.

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This post is in no way intended to try to convert or annoy anyone. Only offered in explanation and in peace.

--LisaBObeesa-maybe dumb, but not a fundy!

teejay

I used to wonder, as horrendous a thing it is to be crucified, how bad could it really be, all things considered? Hell, there are worse ways to go and considering the supposed pay-off, it was a small price to pay.

I was playing with my daughter this morning under some pillows, something she likes to do. There were moments in our play, underneath the pillows with a tiny stream of light coming in, that I thought of people submerged under tons of steel and concrete, alive and conscious, for days. The more I thought the more terrified I became. I lifted the pillow.

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Imagine being forced against your will to betray your Master because it was supposedly "prophecied" in your holy book. Imagine that your Master *requires* your involvement, and that your reward for faithfully carrying our your commission ends you up in Gehenna for eternity.

Cygnus, good point. A 'wild' theory says that Judas was duped and that the Master didn't die at all -- it wasn't him on the cross! Interesting theory. Makes me no difference either way.

gumby

Hey cygnus:
Their are atheists on this board,their are agnostics, their are christians. Why not show at least some respect for those that feel abhored by what you said. I don't hear christian's that say"f**k darwin. Why do some of you hear speak like this then wonder why many leave this board? What an insult dude...to those who believe....real kind.

SixofNine

Obviously, in the human scale of suffering, Jesus suffered right up there at the top of the charts.

It just doesn't seem so to me, Lisa. Not even close, in fact.

Suffering is suffering. Pain is pain.

I have to disagree strongly with this. Suffering with a noble purpose, with a clear idea of just how long before the suffering is over, is far removed, in my mind, from the suffering of a child being tortured, or even an adult, for that matter. Also, being totally free of guilt, able to feel love and understanding for your enemies, tormentors... seems indeed like holy anesthetic to me.

He suffered and gave the world hope, that amazing hope that you think made his suffering worthless is precisely why Christians think it was a big deal.

Not sure exactly how you mean that statement, or if you understand me. Frankly, I think that I would volunteer for that assignment. I'm not being brash here, I really think so. I think most people would. Is that how we will do works greater than him?

2000 years later, the majority of the world does not derive their "hope" from Jesus. In fact, for all the talk about hope, it seems to me Christians are...well...deathly afraid of death.

teejay,

I thought of people submerged under tons of steel and concrete, alive and conscious, for days. The more I thought the more terrified I became.

Part of the reason I went down this road today is because of those people. They volunteered to walk into that disaster, not for the entire world, not even for their families, but for strangers.

Farkel

gumby,

: don't hear christian's that say"f**k darwin.

Spoken like a typical "true believer." Ignore the entire argument and focus on a "bad" word.

The fact is, true believers say the Bible DID prophecy that Jesus would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, and the Bible DID say that Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. Therefore, Judas fulfilled Bible prophecy. Had he not done as he was required to do, would would God have done? Let his prophecy remain unfilfilled? Force someone else to fulfill the prophecy through some sort of mind-control? Killed Judas for not doing what he was supposed to do?

Judas was fucked no matter how you look at it.

Answer the evidence and argument Cygnus presented and I re-presented.

Or can you?

Farkel

SixofNine

gumby, "don't hear christian's that say"f**k darwin."

Really, really, really, no, I mean REALLY, weak comparison.

Having said that, I realize my topic is hard enough for the Bible believer w/o anyone coming in here and saying "**** Jesus. I question whether any of this tale is from God. But I have great respect for the words and wisdom attributed to Jesus.

lisaBObeesa

SixofNine,

I see your points. I guess I agree the suffering would be easier to bare if a person had the hope Jesus had. I still think the actual physical suffering would be the same. But I could be wrong. I hope I never find out, because frankly I am a chicken and pain hurts!

Seriously:
I would hope that I would volunteer for such a thing if it could save the world. That would be such a noble, heroic thing to do, wouldn’t you say?

LisaBObeesa

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No persons of any religious or non-religious beliefs were injured in the making of this post and no offence was implied or intended to those who have suffered or those who have saved the world or those who don’t believe in any of that stuff.

Nomen Clature

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In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....

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