In the big scheme of things, Jesus'....

by SixofNine 74 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  rem

  Siegswife,

  Sounds like you are talking about The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel( http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0310209307/qid=1000787154/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_3_1/107-6542738-8759752)

  Strobel is hardly a scholar - he's a journalist. Interestingly, he did not interview the other side of the issue in his book. I'm sure this book is convincing to Christian apologetics, but it will not convince anyone who knows anything about critical thinking or cares about looking at both sides of an issue.

  I would encourage you to read The Jesus Mysteries for yourself and see if the evangelical's literal interpretation really is based on evidence. I know I was surprised when I looked at both sides of the issue (Proverbs 18:17).

  rem

  "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
  ..........Bertrand Russell
• 

  AlanF

  MegaDupe said:

  : Alan F's response reminds me of someone we call in Texas "All hat and no cattle."

  MegaDupe's response reminds me of people we call in ex-JW circles "Braindead Fundies".

  : You can thump your chest all you want and say "Whatta deal Jesus had! Of course I'd do it. What's a measly impaling on a cross in comparison to being King of the Universe?"

  Yeah, I mean, what's the big deal in being King of the Universe? Not much better than managing a McDonald's, right dude?

  : You'd fill your pants and run like a chicken if you were offered the same deal.

  You would. I wouldn't. You're a coward and haven't the courage of your convictions, obviously.

  : I'd probably be right there with you too.

  Out of the mouth of a cowardly fool.

  : I don't know how much Jesus knew or what his faith was, or what perfection feels like. I do know that eyewitnesses record he was "in an agony," "sweat like drops of blood," that he asked God not to put him through it. In other words, it seems to indicate he was terribly afraid. How much did he remember of his previous life in heaven? Maybe nothing except he knew he had lived before by scripture. I don't know. So how much faith is that? I do know the experience he was going to undergo was completely new to him, that he was going to suffer to a degree he had never undergone before. The Bible indicates his endurance, by whatever measurable degree that was, perfect or not, was pushed to the absolute wall. He cried out, "My God, my God. Why have you forsaken me?" That doesn't sound like someone in perfect control to me, but rather someone who has reached his breaking point.

  More to the point: it sounds like a myth. Really it's a distillation of many myths that went before. There are so many logical holes in this whole myth that it's hard to know where to begin talking about them. The entire ransom thing, from the JW point of view and that of other loser religions that key off Saint Augustine's idea of the ransom, can be summed up thusly: bad things must come in pairs.

  : What is moving to me personally is the fact that if Jesus was who he said he was (something I'm still studying)

  You ought to read a decent skeptical book like Jesus the Magician.

  : that he was a powerful spiritual superbeing that was the son of God, that he was willing to undergo the experience at all. Why not destroy the imperfect part or parts of the universe and start over? I don't see anything trivial about choosing to undergo his human experience, no matter what the "reward" was. He already had his position in heaven. He didn't gain anything as far as a heavenly "promotion" by choosing to die for the world. He was going to return to the "glory he had before the world was." No bump in status that I can see. So what was he coming here for? That's the part that moves me.

  Really. Obviously you're coming from a JW, non-trinitarian perspective, so I'll orient my remarks in that direction.

  Jesus had no choice. He was given his assignment by God. If he refused, God would have declared him a rebel and killed him. Simple as that.

  AlanF
• 

  siegswife

  I'm not really searching anymore. I realized along time ago when I was searching that there is some truth in lies. I've seen the similarities between pagan beliefs and Bible truths. Since I'm someone who believes in the existance of a Deceiver, I don't doubt that he could use his knowledge to create stumbling blocks for people who have doubts. I don't have doubts about God's existance or the existance of Christ, so I really have no need to read that book. Thanks for what (I think) is concern on your part. And I DO think. Just because I also BELIEVE doesn't negate that.
• 

  MegaDude

  It's easy to see you get very emotional and upset when someone posts that they respect what Christ did, that they believe in him. Although you have run into your share of brain-dead, Jesus-believing
  born-againer fruitcakes, as well as JWs, that doesn't necessarily make the people here who believe in Christ a fundy. You're way offbase there, and your response is emotional rather than logical. When you start off a post calling names instead of your logic, the info you have to share get lost in your emotional reaction.

  You recommend reading "Jesus the Magician." Thanks for the recommendation. You're right. You should listen to both sides of the story. I would like to see you start another thread of what you learned from this book.

  You said: "Jesus had no choice. He was given his assignment by God. If he refused, God would have declared him a rebel and killed him. Simple as that."

  If he was God (Trinity view), then he got nothing extra that I can tell for his efforts. He goes back to heaven and he is fully God again. If he was God, then he made the decision to undergo sacrificing himself. He didn't take any order. If he was not God, but the son of God (JW view), I still don't see what bump in status he got for his trouble. He was already "second in command."

  Please start another thread on what you learned from Jesus the Magician. Maybe you could give a brief overview of the best arguments that show Jesus is a myth. If it's as good as you say it is, then I need to read it.
• 

  Julie

  This is an interesting discussion with many views. I would like to point out the fact that crucifixion was a common punishment in Jesus' day. There are worse ways to die, longer, more drawn out and just as painful.

  I would like to point out to those who haven't got a big problem with all the God-sanctioned murder and cruelty in the bible. These extremists that committed the attack on America last week think they were fulfilling a "holy" cause against the "infidel". Infidel, where have I heard that before? Oh yes!! The crusades!! Of course. That is when Christians were committing "holy" murder too.

  If the whole Jesus-crucifixion story is true I can tell you there are countless others who have died for others too. What about the people on the plane that ccrashed in Pennsylvania. They likely made the hijackers crash where they did instead of letting them continue killing htousands of other Americans. Is that not also the ultimate sacrifice? Countless people have died for a cause they believed in or to save the lives of others. Let's not forget that.

  In fact, according to the bible, many folks have died involuntarily for the "sin" of others. For example what about the 70,000 who (according to the bible) died because David took a census? Do they not count for anything?

  Julie
• 

  TR

  Thanks, rem. I just ordered the book.

  TR

  The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
  —Edmund Burke
• 

  gumby

  Farkle:
  Spoken like a typical "true believer." Ignore the entire argument and focus on a "bad" word
  When would YOU have suggested that I bring up what I did? All I was saying is have some respect and don't drive people off this board by saying f**k jesus.
  In answer to the topic.....what is sixofnines point?
  Would it have made more sense if jesus death was the most painfull one ever recorded? Then he would have better earned what he recieved for doing that?
  Judah's was fu**ed. Ya...I guess he was. Was it possible that as God knew esau and jacob before they were born he also knew judah's?
  It does seem unfair to us that he was screwed before he was born...but God knows all things before they happen.
  What made christ death so meaningfull is WHO he was.
  Suppose the terrorist would have impaled Bush on the statue of liberty. Would people have been more SHOCKED than those that crashed in pennsylvania. Yes...I think they would. To kill someone of noble standing is always more horrendous in peoples eyes than someone not
  known, though both people are equall in reality. BUT GODS SON!!
  To crucify the highest in the universe took a great deal of sacrafice. O.K your turn!!!!! Fire away
• 

  funkyderek

  An omnipotent god sent his son (or himself) to earth to live as a human and to die what everyone seems to agree was a pretty painful, humiliating death. Why? To save sinners. What is he saving them from? Death. Why do they die? Punishment from the same god. Which means that the cause of all humankind's suffering is causing another sentient being (himself and/or his son) immense suffering in order to relieve humankind's suffering. Which two thousand years later, is still going on. Have I missed anything here?

  --
  Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire
• 

  siegswife

  When God created everything, He conceived Truth and lies, Light and darkness, Love and hate, Obedience and disobedience. He rejected the negative as not being something that is in Him. He is the only One that can define Himself and what He conceives. By conceiving those things the door was created for them to be born. In His Wisdom, He warned His creation that bringing those sorts of things to birth would be fruitless. Resulting in the opposite of Life, which is in Him and can only come from Him.

  When He gave His Creation the Law of "do not eat or you will die", He was giving him the opportunity to obey or disobey. Adam decided to disobey. God gave authority to the lie and disobedience to have life only for a moment so the fruitlessness of it to be revealed. Thus, God's Truthfulness would also be vindicated. God does not lie and no lie has foundation. It cannot prove to be Life, only death.

  The Seed of Life is Christ. The life of a seed is proving to be the fruit. The seed has to give up its own life in order to prove to be the fruit. In that sort of death, death is brought to nothing by the resulting life. But not all seeds prove to be the fruit, some are fruitless and the life that they contained comes to nothing. So it is with the lie. Disobedience is bad because it proves to be nothing.
  God didn't Create simply to have it come to nothing. But in His Wisdom He has used the disobedience of His creation to teach it a valuable lesson.

  He took upon Himself the blame for our error, because He is the only One that has NO blame in the matter. He gave us freewill, and men have used it for the path of fruitless pursuits. He took the blame for the birth of these things, for creating the door for their birth by giving us the law which gave sin and disobedience an opportunity to abound, and He has given us a door for for reconciliation to Him in the process. I don't see where God has done anything other than that which is for our benefit and knowledge and freedom.
  If He had never said, 'No you must not eat' we never would have had freewill to choose. We would never had known 'Yes'.
• 

  teejay

  Please start another thread on what you learned from Jesus the Magician. Maybe you could give a brief overview of the best arguments that show Jesus is a myth. If it's as good as you say it is, then I need to read it.

  Me, too.