Ray Franz CoC, was he in denial? Just asking. (page 3)

WTFBBQPWNT

YOU LIED AND GOT CAUGHT.

ZOMG what will I do now?????

freetosee

I remember a sentence in COC where RF mentions that it took him 60 years to realize the mistake, when others found out just by reading the bible.

I too wonder how one can have so many positions of oversight in the org, including gb, and not seeing the deceit used to lead the membership. He was brain-washed like we were. But as branch overseer and gb partook in the washing. Why does he not say much about the child abuse problem?

Yes, IMO he lived in denial and in COC he explains this about himself and the other gb members. He also mentioned that Knorr would not have dealt with him in the way the gb did when d’fing him.

I think authoritarian constructions are run not by individuals so much, but by the system that is developed over a certain time and the hanging on by its members to its self proclaimed significance.

Though, I don’t agree with his picture of blinded gb leading the rest. b/c there is too much evil energies, greed, purposely used deception, power lust and self-righteousness among the leader of the wt leaders.

I was a teenager in the 80ties, but do remember it being said that he wanted to rule the org and had to go. So it is good his book gave clarification to this.

What make his book so valuable and unique is that a cult leader writes about the inner workings of the wts. Other cults are being exposed too, but that one of its top men exposes is a very rare case, I know of no other. The time was good too, since he experienced the gb taking power. Also he being in the writing dept gave him much training to do that job effectively. As an individual he surly is the worst thing to happen to the wts.

fts

TD

It's a little hard to believe that after all those years in the Org and 9 years on the Gov. Body that he hadn't see the bullcrap before. It reads as if its written for non-witnesses who are ignorant of the truth about the truth and accept things at face value. What do you think?

I thought Franz went out of his way to make the point that questioning, discussing, adjusting, revising or discarding doctrine, even major doctrines like whether the "Last days" began in 1914, was common at this level in the JW organization.

Wasanelder Once

TD,

What I meant about denial was in regard to his being "surprised" at the way he was handled regarding his differing views on doctrine. How can he honestly write as if he were shocked by the treatment given him when he was in the "Truth" as long as he was? I was an elder (hey look at that!) for a short time and I saw the way they did thier witch hunts and the unloving way they treated people of differing opinions. He was in the org for 60 years or so and on the GB so I don't follow all this "they were unloving to me" business. That's the denial I'm talking about. He had to know the game, the way things run, the whole enchilada, and stuff. That's all I'm referring to. Any witness knows that its a closed society, in both mind and affections. You dare not utter a word that is not in agreement. That's what I mean by denial. Ray writes as if it were an earth shattering thing to him. I suppose he thought he was above the witch hunts because he was one of the good ol' boys? I don't know.

As I said, his book is still of great value. I just wonder about some of the ways he expresses himself, that's all.

W.Once

willyloman

How can he honestly write as if he were shocked by the treatment given him when he was in the "Truth" as long as he was?

Perhaps because when one occupies a "prominent" position in dubdom, the rules often don't apply. I saw this myself, seated upstairs in the "Most Holy" (aka Chaiman's Office) sporting my color-coded "Administration" name badge, during conventions. You'd be shocked at some of the hard questions and the opinions/criticisms some of these guys will voice when they are isolated from the "sheep" and seated amongst organizational heavies.

They're outside the law. My guess is Ray enjoyed that kind of freedom for years and was surprised when the "boys" turned on him. I've seen that, too, and when they do, it's ugly.

HappyDad

You're clueless. I'm not even one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Then why are you here? To show your ignorance of a system you don't understand or even have a clue about? You haven't lived it "birdbrain".

"Better to be quiet and thought a fool..........than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." (source unknown)

HappyDad

freetosee

Willy, that makes a lot of sense. Coc also shows that the heavies are above the law.

Wasanelder Once

Willy,

I agree. That's what helped take me out, the whole business of CO's and DO's talking so condescendingly of others who looked to their example and gave them the golden handshake. It sickened me. I stlii think Ray's expressions sound somewhat "Polyanna'ish" for reality. He seems too savvy to be that naive about the cryptkeepers of the GB. I have my suspiscions about his veracity as to his "shocked" response to thier roughness. It doesn't lessen any of how they treated him, it just takes down the intensity a notch in my book. Poor, poor Ray sounds more slick than he intends to. I believe him, I just wonder a little at it all.

Go team conscience.

W.Once

rassillon

I don't know if he was in denial.

As I journy along on my path out I find myself conflicted on many things. I want to scream out what I know sometimes, but know that doing so I would lose alot. I sometimes try to interject logical reasoning and truth into witness discussions without being blatent because I hope eventually ones I care about will wake up. When you get at odds with someone (a jw) you think, "why can't you see this? It is so plain" and they probably think the same thing. It is like trying to wake up some one and they start fighting with you, do you as a wake person fight back or do you try to calm them and help them and kindof look at them a little funny cause they are fighting for no reason.

I tend to think that most of us when we, come to a realization of the real truth, we ask our selves how we could not have seen this before. As the ORG says time and again it is hard to contain these new truths and when people become advisarial with us we are shocked.

I guess it is just hard to understand everyones situation and why they do certain things.

Also the translation of thoughts into words is sometimes difficult, so despite the best efforts of the author somethings don't get conveyed well to all readers.

Well that is just my POV.

-r

rebel8

His "cause" was to collect minions that would satisfy that craving for power that he could no longer have quenched by being on the GB.
Evidence, please.

No response, OP?

Ray Franz describes his personal deborgification process as a slow one. That should not be surprising to anyone at all. Most people go through a slow process of first realizing, then getting the strength/courage to act, then acting upon the truth. Most people who do realize never get to the point of having courage to act, let alone taking on the wts headquarters publicly. Who are you to say he didn't make his transition the right way? Who decides what is the right way and what is the wrong way?

Ray's book has literally changed countless lives for the better. He was a sad victim of a powerful mind control cult that left him out in the cold with NO income after years and years of service, just for questioning their sinister practices and fake beliefs. He is now older and he and his wife are dealing with serious illnesses.

You apparently have no factual basis for accusing him of the craving for power, etc., but yet you decided to do so on an international forum with the potential of thousands reading it.

That makes you a bully.

Ray Franz CoC, was he in denial? Just asking.

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