Grand and Lesser Apostate Delusions

by slimboyfat 100 Replies latest jw friends

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Interesting observations, Narkissos.

    : When I left the WT 20 years ago, I was aware of some intellectual dishonesty on their part -- the Creation book being a good example: a close friend of mine translated it into French, and when he used the French published translations for some of the quotations he was apalled at the frequent misrepresentation of the authors' views.

    Do you think that this constant misrepresentation was generally a result of gross ignorance on the part of the writers who contributed to the Creation book, or due to deliberate attempts to garner support from any quarter despite knowing that the writers were misrepresenting things? There are clear instances of deliberate malfeasance, but I'm talking about the overall level of dishonesty versus ignorance.

    : Still this has not really altered my basic analysis: imo neither intellectual dishonesty nor political cynicism rule out religious sincerity on the part of the leaders (at least most of them); rather, it is a consequence of it. Being sincerely (and blindly) committed to an organisation identified as "the truth" once and for all is the actual motivation for lying, in many ways, to defend it. Some individuals will never realise the underlying contradiction, and others who do feel and regret it will never reach the simple conclusion that this is not the truth.

    I basically agree with you. However, as you already know, Jesus pointed out that the Pharisees were under condemnation for doing exactly the same thing. There is no question that they were sincere, but their underlying motivations were apparently not oriented towards doing God's will, but towards maintaining their own high place in the world. Their seeming sincerity, therefore, was motivated by self-interest rather than interest in doing God's will. I think that Watchtower leaders are exactly the same. Since the time when C. T. Russell began to receive adulation from his readers, they've set themselves "in the seat of Moses", as it were, receiving the same adulation and even many physical benefits -- a place to live, food, clothing, travel opportunities -- all at no cost to them. They've set themselves up as a modern day Levitical priesthood, and used Old and New Testament allusions to justify it.

    : I remember when I was in Bethel one friend of mine once had a TMS part about "honesty". He followed the outline but added an extra point about "intellectual honesty" -- to the effect that the truth could never be defended with lies. I guess this was lost on most of the audience but not on me.

    This is the main thing that got me out of the JWs a long time ago -- the Society's gross scholastic dishonesty.

    Unfortunately, this gross dishonesty in trying to defend one's religious beliefs, or to defend God, is all too common among Christians and other religious people. They don't seem to realize that lying to defend "the truth" is self-defeating at best, and if there is a God, at worst will get one in serious trouble with him. I like the sentiments expressed in Job 13:7-12 (New Living Translation):

    7 "Are you defending God by means of lies and dishonest arguments? 8 You should be impartial witnesses, but will you slant your testimony in his favor? Will you argue God's case for him? 9 Be careful that he doesn't find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool him as easily as you fool people? 10 No, you will be in serious trouble with him if even in your hearts you slant your testimony in his favor. 11 Doesn't his majesty strike terror into your heart? Does not your fear of him seize you? 12 Your statements have about as much value as ashes. Your defense is as fragile as a clay pot.

    AlanF

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Kid-A,

    Interesting that you should choose this analogy of Godhagen as it is something I happen to know a lot about. The major flaw in Goldhagen's thesis is that he relies heavily on an essentialist framework - the very patterns of dogma that gave rise to anti-Semitism in the first place. In the context of our dicussion it is also interesting to note that Goldhagen quoted scholars out of context to make his case, as Ruth Bettina Birn and others have documented extensively.

    To the point, I do not accept that the Witnesses are even remotely like the Nazis. So the discussion is hard to get of the ground since I fundamentally reject your basic assumption. You also make the statement:

    Regarding SBF's predictably idiotic assertion that all JWs are basically "well-intentioned" , again, complete and utter nonsense.

    I never made such a comment, and what is more I wrote precisely that there are undoubtedly some leaders in the movement with bad motives. Did you actually read my post before this diatribe? It seems you did not. So your biggest gripes against the Witnesses are the blood issue and "shunning". I really fail to see how either or both of these issues warrants any comparison with Nazi Germany, I am really so astonished by this comparison I don't know what more to say about it. People know what they are getting into when they join the Witnesses, they know the rules and what happens if they are unrepentant. You could argue that there are some who are perhaps too young to know the consequences properly, I could sympathise with that argument. However, that only speaks for a tiny minority of Witnesses. And whereas I have head of Witnesses being forcibly given transfusions against their will, I have not heard of Witnesses forcing people not to have transfusions.

    If people who disagree with having transfusions choose not to have them, really what business is it of yours? And what sort of twisted logic manages to equate this with anything the Nazis did?

    It may seem trite and overworn to you, but I do not think it is redundant to point out that the very people you malign with your Nazi comparisons are ones who courageously as a group stood against the atrocities that the Nazis perpetrated. They deserve better.

    As for your personal attacks, they speak for themselves and I feel no need to reply in kind.

    Slim

  • sf
    sf
    There are malevolant JWs at ALL levels of the borg, from lowly drone "pioneers" all the way up to the dictators on the GB. However, it is the "ordinary" JWs that CARRY OUT THE ORDERS.....destroying families, ensuring that innocent children in emergency rooms are denied life-saving blood transfusions, engaging in public shunning of people, which is nothing but a form of psychological torture. Even for those voicelessly participating in these watchtower perversions: silence = complicity.

    Nail, meet hammer.

    Nailed!

    sKally

  • Little Bo Peep
    Little Bo Peep

    There is dishonesty dealing with the 607 issue, quoting AK Grayson as meaning 607 instead of 586-587 which his research said. Also, changing the dates in Harpers Bible Dictionary from 586-587 to 607, all to fit their "needs" to end up at 1914 and 1918. The dishonesty can be seen in the New World Translation also, adding words, sometimes with brackets and many without brackets, all the same, changing the meaning drastically in quite a number of verses, when, according to the foreward, they are used only to enhance the English language. The list can go on and on, as the replys to your post are showing.

    There is plenty of dishonesty. I'm sure the great majority of JW's, even at Bethyl, are completely unaware of the dishonesty, that is why so many are leaving. Issues like what you've brought up, really do a lot to keep some of the main issues to the front on this forum, where "lurkers" can find out for themselves.

  • sf
    sf

    slim,

    You sound like a jw I used to go rounds with in the old jw yahoo "user room" a few years back.

    People know what they are getting into when they join the Witnesses, they know the rules and what happens if they are unrepentant.

    Please share, just when does this occur during the bible study courtship? Roughly.

    You could argue that there are some who are perhaps too young to know the consequences properly

    Consequences...properly? Praytell brother. Praytell.

    I could sympathise with that argument.

    Could? Interesting.

    However, that only speaks for a tiny minority of Witnesses

    LOL!!! Exactly! Those children are the minorty, that you got right brother. A minorty that has no real idea of the lethal organization they their parents joined into. Their objections go unheard and even silent after a while. After the org hooks in the unsuspecting parent, and is trained Watchtower style on how to raise her children and what the PROPER CONSEQUENCES will be for not obeying "Jehovah" (find out quick that "Jehovah"= WTBTS/GB/ELDERS), F.E.A.R. is what truly washes over the child.

    Slim...why do the children live in so much F.E.A.R. in this organization of "happy people (adults)"? What is it that is so F.E.A.R.-ed? Do you have kids? Did you raise them in this organization?

    And incidently, have you read the Journal of Church and State 12-05 issue on JW's/ Blood and the Tort of Misrepresentation?

    sKally

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    KidA..Like SkallyWagger posted"Nail meet Hammer",you hit the nail on the head...........SlimboyFat..Let me refresh your memory as to what you posted:"So why can`t Apostates simply accept that Witness`s are well intentioned yey simply misguided."..KidA was correct in his post to you,there it is in your own words!..KidA did`nt come up with the exact wording you used..So you dismissed him..Not very honest on your part..You continue to make veiled attacks on people you consider Apostates..You still haven`t backed up your post where you said:You read on this forum about apostates burning down a Kingdom Hall..Where is your proof?..Better yet,where is your proof Troll?...OUTLAW

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    I do not accept that the Witnesses are even remotely like the Nazis.

    The truth of the matter is not reliant on your acceptance. If you choose to remain in denial that's your problem. The abusive authoritarianism of the watchtower cult is beyond dispute.

    W

  • Sunspot
    Sunspot
    What you are, SBF, since other posters seem to wear kid-gloves when dealing with you, is a malicious little troll, who compulsively starts these threads to 1) get the attention you so desperately crave and 2) to rub salt in the wounds of people on this board whose lives have been irreparably damaged by the JW detritus you so desperately defend. Your actions define you as a vile and odious JW whose only purpose on this board is to piss off people. Your games are becoming pathetic, and utterly predictable.

    BRAVO!!!! And SO well said, Kid-A!!!!

  • sf
    sf

    OUTLAW,

    I hope he is preparing a succulent reply to MY post. I haven't had a roast dub in sometime and I'm famished!

    I seriously want answers to the questions I posed.

    Lettuce...see if he comes back to the table.

    sKally

  • VM44
    VM44

    The Watchtower organization is totallitarian in nature with a top-down authority structure.

    Russell, Rutherford and Knorr were autocratic rulers of the Watchtower when they were presidents.

    It is incorrect to classify the Watchtower as Nazi-like, although anyone who does so is probably attempting to point out the oppressive treatment of the Watchtower organization towards individuals.

    --VM44

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