Grand and Lesser Apostate Delusions

by slimboyfat 100 Replies latest jw friends

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  fullofdoubtnow

  People know what they are getting into when they join the Witnesses, they know the rules and what happens if they are unrepentant. You could argue that there are some who are perhaps too young to know the consequences properly, I could sympathise with that argument. However, that only speaks for a tiny minority of Witnesses.

  SBF, as a baptised jw you know very well that, prior to baptism, no one is aware of all the rules that go along with becoming a jw. No one is told in their study how they will be treated if they pertain to question anyrthing they've been taught after baptism. How many people are told the full implications of the shunning rule? How many are made aware that stepping out of line might lead to their families being divided? If they told people those things during a study, there'd be a lot less baptisms than there are now, I suspect. People aren't given that information until they are brainwashed enough to not question it.

  As for "some who are too young to know the consequences properly", if these kids aren't fully able to grasp what will happen if they reject wts teachings when they are older, then why the hell do the jws allow them to baptised in the first place? Why don't they encourage them to wait until they are around 18 - 20, or even older, when logically they should be better able to understand the consequences. In my experience, and I was a jw longer than you've been alive, kids were put under pressure to get baptised by both their parents and the elders when they were as young as 8 or 9. I have seen 9 year olds baptised: don't try to tell me that they knew what they were getting into, and don't try to tell me that their parents weren't aware of the possible consequences either, yet they went right ahead and pushed their kids into baptism. More than a few of those kids have now left the religion, and are shunned by their families. It seems a heavy price to pay for doing something at 9 or 10 that you didn't fully understand just to please your parents.
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  OUTLAW

  SkallyWagger..Roast Dub Sandwich`s and a cold Beer..Thats my girl!..LOL!!..SlimBoyfat ran his mouth about Apostates Burning down a Kingdom Hall on your thread and did`nt back it up.He just ran away..LOL!!.Now he`s running his mouth about Apostates on his own thread..KidA nailed him good!..I don`t think he wants a debate with you!..LOL!!..I doubt anyone will get a honest answer from SBF.I haven`t seen one yet..Look at his rebutal to KidA..Pathetic...........SlimBoyFat..You said you read on this forum Apostates burned down a Kingdom Hall..Where is your proof?..Back up your post..No one knows who burned down the Kingdom Hall,except You!..I want to see your proof.It will be a good indicator to everyone,as to how honest or dishonest you really are...OUTLAW
• 

  Sunspot

  SBF, as a baptised jw you know very well that, prior to baptism, no one is aware of all the rules that go along with becoming a jw.

  I have been accused of "going back on my vow" but JWs don't take into account that they are deliberately not told of many things that are discovered after baptism. That is a lame excuse and does not fit these circumstances.

  "No one is told in their study how they will be treated if they pertain to question anyrthing they've been taught after baptism".

  ~~~~~I can't turn the yellow off! But all they hear is the allegedly "upbuilding and glowing" aspects of JWhood and not what really goes on in Watchtowerland.

  "How many people are told the full implications of the shunning rule?"

  This is seldom discussed unless a study happens to know about this in advance.

  "How many are made aware that stepping out of line might lead to their families being divided?"

  If it happens to come up, the "study" is never made aware of how this might occur, and newly baptized ones still have no idea about applying any of this to themselves. Really---who thinks about being DFed when you are just out of the gate?

  If they told people those things during a study, there'd be a lot less baptisms than there are now, I suspect. People aren't given that information until they are brainwashed enough to not question it.

  (yellow problems again....)

  Ain't DAT the truth! All the pretty pictures planted in their heads about an idyllic life eating giant fruit with plastic people---has solidified their brains and they are now true Jdubs, firmly dedicated to serving a publishing company forever.
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  Beardo

  It may seem trite and overworn to you, but I do not think it is redundant to point out that the very people you malign with your Nazi comparisons are ones who courageously as a group stood against the atrocities that the Nazis perpetrated. They deserve better.

  That is a good point of course... BUT...

  Is it not true that JWs walk around slaughtering people at Armageddon within their own minds? If there were a ruling in the New Testament to stone people to death for a variety of moral transgressions, how many of the nutjobs you know (or knew) would willingly pick a nice shiney old boulder and throw it?

  I still struggle daily with sociopathic feelings and often despise many humans I meet, but I'm working on these feelings. Its an ongoing project
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  freetosee

  There are many parallels between the WT leadership and the Nazis. So I see no problem comparing them, in fact the wt leader did so himself… http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/119679/1.ashx

  fts
• 

  Narkissos

  Alan,

  Do you think that this constant misrepresentation was generally a result of gross ignorance on the part of the writers who contributed to the Creation book, or due to deliberate attempts to garner support from any quarter despite knowing that the writers were misrepresenting things? There are clear instances of deliberate malfeasance, but I'm talking about the overall level of dishonesty versus ignorance.

  The only room for doubt, from my perspective, is the possibility that the English WT writers gathered some/much/most of their scientific quotes second-hand from English Creationist literature, and did not bother to check the primary sources in their own context -- the French translator, otoh, had to look up the primary sources inasmuch as those were published in French translation. So at best it is negligence.

  One explanation for such negligence, imho, is the following: the creation vs. evolution debate is a side issue to American JWs, even in the Writing dept. Their usual focus is doctrinal, and in this area they are used to build their own stuff juggling with Bible "prooftexts," knowing they will find very little support from non-JW documentation. When they happen to deal with evolution, which is not their area of "expertise," they suddenly have to deal with a considerable amount of "friendly" apologetic literature they basically agree with, and are not prepared to examine it critically. Iow, they are so used to be "alone" with their "unique truth" that they are unable to beware of their "allies" when they happen to side with many people. Only artificially do they separate themselves from the mass of "creationists" -- on details in their interpretation of Genesis (days as "periods," etc.). They don't feel the need to criticise "creationism" any deeper than that, and then are ready to accept any argument that agrees with their doctrinal interpretation -- however flawed.
• 

  slimboyfat

  sf,

  If I really must go to lengths to disprove the lie that Witnesses supposedly keep disfellowshipping from Witnesses before they are baptised then here goes:

  When a person becomes an unbaptised publisher they are given an Organized to do Jehovah's Will book that explains reproof in some detail. People are no tgenerally rushed into baptism as Jehovah's Witnesses, and it would be remarkable if the unbaptised publisher does not encounter at least a few parts in the meetings discussing disfellowshipping before being baptised. Then of course there are there baptism questions that spell out in excruciating detail many of the things that can get you in trouble. On the one hand the Witnesses are maligned for imposing the unscriptural "qualification" system on people being baptised, and on the other they are accused of trying to keep things from potential converts.

  I do not know that there is so much fear.

  I don't have kids.

  I wouldn't raise kids as Witnesses because I do no believe in it, though there certainly would be worse ways to grow up in my opinion.

  I have a copy of the article in the Journal of Church and State and have read it twice, how what about it?

  Slim
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  AlanF

  So what you're saying, Narkissos, is that the Writing Department men are incompetent to write about certain subjects, but they know they have no expertise in them, yet are willing to pretend to have expertise in order to support their doctrines. In my view, that is the height of intellectual dishonesty.

  AlanF
• 

  fullofdoubtnow

  People are no tgenerally rushed into baptism as Jehovah's Witnesses

  Apart from the 8 or 9 years old kids blackmailed into it by their parents, with the elders joining in the blackmail if the kid resists. Slim, don't tell me that you've never been to an assembly and not seen kids being baptised. If you haven't, then you haven't been to many, if any, assemblies.

  Do you think you were mature enough at 8, 9 or 10 years of age to make a decision that would affect your whole life? I know I wasn't, and I've never met a child of that age who is. I have, however, met quite a few who got baptised at that age, and on many occasions regretted it later, when they got to 16 or 17.

  The wts say they don't go in for child baptisms. What is a 9 year old then, an adult?
• 

  TD

  SB,

  ....But is clearly nonsense to claim, as apostates here often do in a matter-of-fact sort of way that the leadership en masse is simply interested in making money, or that they are purposely trying to lie to people in their publications.

  I think your statement is worded in such a way as to preclude the possibility of proof. Proof would require the presentation of one or more specific instances and specific instances would involve the acts of one, or at most a handful of specific individuals. IOW There are plenty of examples of dishonesty in JW publications on a variety of topics, but JW publications are not written by the leadership en masse.