Who is Jesus? Is he God? (page 15)

Deputy Dog

For how I worship Jesus, it is through praise and obedience.

Please tell us more.

Mondo1

What more do you want to know? That sums it up pretty well.

Hellrider

Mondo:

The fact is actually that Revelation 22:12-13 is the Father, which I will be happy to demonstrate if you like. Jesus begins speaking in verse 16.

Why? Doesn`t Jesus calls himself "the beginning and the end" elsewhere in the texts? There is nothing in Rev 22 that indicates that there is a shift in speaker from verse 15 to 16, it is only your pre-established overall Bible-doctrines that says that this is the case. And, by the way, this is the case with most of your arguments. Whenver it fits your anti-trinitarian doctrines, Jesus is speaking on Gods behalf. Nothing new or shocking there, coming from a jw. Just same old same old, but the point is, that if it wasn`t for your allready established doctrines, there is nothing in the text that indicates that Jesus is "speaking on the fathers behalf" when he speaks of himself in God-like terms, there is nothing in the text that indicates that when Thomas says "my Lord and my God" that he is speaking of Jesus as "God-like", or even just a "god to him". It`s all in your doctrines (and I am neutral btw, not a christian, so I have no stakes in it).

Mondo1

Ellderwho,

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More fluff, your evading the idea of the verse, Its not something to be understood/grasped.

Why would Jesus grasping for equality be hard to understand?
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Dismissal is how you respond to refutation, eh? The text says he did NOT grasp for equality. It says OUC hARPAGMON, not just hARPAGMON.

Mondo

ellderwho

How does this help you? If God giving glory to Jesus makes Jesus God, Jesus giving glory to his disciples makes his disciples God.

C'mon Mondo strawman come to mind.

You kmow exactly waht the cited verses state now deal with them.

Mondo1

hellride,

If you keep reading, you'll see I gave good reason to understand a speaker change, for there is something quite clear in the text that does show it.

For Thomas' words, there is nothing that would make one take it in the Trinitarian sense either. Yet the Trinitarian view isn't really that Jesus is "God," for Trinitarians don't *really* even believe that. They believe that God is Triune and Jesus is actually a PERSON of God.

Mondo

ellderwho

Dismissal is how you respond to refutation, eh? The text says he did NOT grasp for equality. It says OUC hARPAGMON, not just hARPAGMON.
Mondo

Yeah I dismissed them. I thoiught you had a little more in the arsenal then this.

Mondo1

ellderwho,

Do you even know what a strawman is? Apparently not, because I did not commit one. I merely observed that if God giving Jesus glory means Jesus is God, Jesus giving his disciples glory means his disciples are God. Obviously the text does not mean that, so obviously that view is wrong. I did not claim for you an argument that you did not make and then go ahead and shoot it down, which is what a strawman is. I have delt with your verses. If you do not believe I have, then you need to demonstrate such, for empty claims of it do not impress anybody.

Mondo

Mondo1

ellderwho,

What I am presenting is obviously more than sufficient, for you are unable to come back with any type of reply other than to deny I addressed your point. As you are unable to show where I did not address it, though you claim that I do, you demonstrate that I did in fact address it.

Mondo

Deputy Dog

Mondo

What more do you want to know? That sums it up pretty well.

Well this looks a little problematic for you?

Exo 20:3

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:4

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness ofanything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

And you do believe that Jesus is a God, Right!

John 1:1

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

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