Who is Jesus? Is he God? (page 12)

LittleToe

sinis:"Suspected" might be more accurate. It has neither been "found out" nor "proven", as far as I am aware.

LittleToe

Mondo:
Are you sure it's the Word and not the Spirit?

Mondo1

LittleToe,

Are you refering to Genesis 1:26? If so, I would say as there is no record of anybody ever saying anything *to* the Spirit in Scripture, this is pretty unlikely.

Mondo

LittleToe

On what basis are you identifying Wisdom with the Word?

sinis

sinis:"Suspected" might be more accurate. It has neither been "found out" nor "proven", as far as I am aware.

You are correct. Yet I do not understand why we give SO much credance to a book written milleniums ago! Ransom makes no sense, OT makes no sense, NT makes no sense, has contradiction and strife (apostles and Paul). Yet people still believe this crap hook line and sinker? Hell, in 2000 years mankind will think Scientology was real and aliens did inhabit the planet No one wants to look at religion for what it is and was made for -> utter control of the masses. Now, I'm not saying there is not a god. I believe there is one. Now to what his purpose for man is or to what extent he/she/it will intervene in our affairs I have no idea. I just don't go for the canned christian happy meal being sold today...

Mondo1

A number of lines of evidence. First, the allusions to both Proverbs 8 and Jewish Wisdom literature within quotes of the New Testament that relate to Jesus. This in itself does not prove anything, but we must consider all of the evidence. Second, the fact that Jesus is both directly and indirectly called Wisdom. Third, there can be only one first created, because first is first and first of creation is the first of creation, and Wisdom is it and so is Jesus. (Prov. 8:22; Rev. 3:14) Of course if you'd like to dispute the translation and meaning of those two texts, I'm certainly more than willing to do so... but really, the primary line of evidence is simply the fact that Jesus is called "Wisdom" directly, both by Paul and by Jesus himself, speaking in the third person.

Mondo

Deputy Dog

Mondo

"What, Scripturally, was Jesus' role?" I'm glad you asked

John 2:18

Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroythistemple,andinthreedaysI willraise it up.20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days? 21But he spake of the temple of his body. 22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

His disciples believed the Scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. Why can't you?

John 17:5 show that Jesus is not the Father.

You have to stop believing the watchtower lie that Trinitarians believe this crap. Who ever said that Jesus was the Father? Don't put words in my mouth and I wont put words in yours. Of course the Father is not the Son, But, they are both God.

What role did Jesus take that was unique from that of the Father?

Jesus took the role of the servant (Son), who as God, submitted to the Law

Phi 2:6

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Mondo, when are you going to bow the knee?

Mondo1

Deputy Dog,

Somebody seems to be getting upset...

----------------------------
"What, Scripturally, was Jesus' role?" I'm glad you asked -------------------------

It is great that you quoted from John 2, but I already referenced John 2, and it does not answer my question! The Bible is clear in that it would be the Father that would raise Jesus. As Jesus is not the Father, what did Jesus due that was distinct from the Father?

------------------------------------
You have to stop believing the watchtower lie that Trinitarians believe this crap. Who ever said that Jesus was the Father? Don't put words in my mouth and I wont put words in yours. Of course the Father is not the Son, But, they are both God.
--------------------------

Here is where we see you getting upset. Where did I say Trinitarians believed that? I didn't. I am quite aware of what Trinitarians do and do not believe, but for all I know, you are a Sebellian.

--------------------------
Jesus took the role of the servant (Son), who as God, submitted to the Law
---------------------

This tells me nothing of what role Jesus played in his own resurrection. What specifically did he do that was distinct from what the Father did?

------------------------------------
Mondo, when are you going to bow the knee?
------------------------

I already do. When are you going to get a better translation? Yours really messes up 6b and 7a. Try the NASB.

Mondo

BelieverInJesus

Mondo,

Yes, please explain your logic on Rev 22-12-16. How do you get that it jumps from father to son? It's clear to me, that it's Jesus speaking throughout these verses.

So here on earth Nebuchadnezzer was referred to as king of kings. But Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world."

Sure dog's and cat's are "pets."

Pet's is NON-specific. Cat's and Dog's are more-specific. If I refer to my dog I say "the 3 year old miniture dachsund named Luigi Francesco. Which is highly specific. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end." Is VERY specific.

Look at verse 12...who is "coming quickly"? Look down at verse 20 ""...Yes, I am coming quickly" Amen. Come, Lord Jesus."

ellderwho

Careful in your exegesis there my friend. It says nothing of him having "some of the Fathers glory." It speaks of Jesus having glory "alongside" the Father. The Greek word is PARA, which here simply means "with.

Mat 16:27

For the Son of man is destined to come in the glory l of his Father with his angels, and then he will recompense each one according to his behavior.

Mar 8:38

For whoever becomes ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of man will also be ashamed of him when he arrives in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."

Joh 17:22

Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

Heb 1:3

He is the reflection of [his] glory

and the exact representation of his very being, and he sustains all things by the word of his power; and after he had made a purification for our sins he sat down on the right hand of the Majesty in lofty places.

mondo1....They each have glory with eachother, but there isno thought of them sharing eachothers glory. It is a glory unique to each one.

From your response, the onus, my friend is upon you to explain a seperate "glory" for Christ.

For example, if you look up into the sky at night you see the stars, and the glory of the stars. From man's perspective on the earth, we look up and see them "with" eachother. They each have glory with eachother, but there is no thought of them sharing eachothers glory. It is a glory unique to each one.

Same here, you arbitrarily create a scenerio unique to your own perspective without scriptual backing.

Further, in reference to the "Savior" my response was your argument is with scripture:

If that is the case, why did you not address my point. Here it is again for you. I said: "I would suggest you read the book of Judges, where a number of "saviors" are refered to, and properly called such. For example, Ehud was "a savior.""

Your argument is still with scripture. Judges has nothing to do with what Jehovah directly states, as he is desribing his attributes.

Im sure you would say the same of Isaiah 45:5. Because it directly clashes with your Jo.1:1

Isa 45:5 I am Jehovah, and there is no one else. With the exception of me there is no God. I shall closely gird you, although you have not known me

Who is Jesus? Is he God?

Share this