Christians and dubs/treated same here

by gumby 53 Replies latest jw friends

  • dungbeetle
    dungbeetle

    posted by rem:
    You make me laugh. You talk a lot of bluster, but when it comes down to presenting and listening to facts you run with your tail between your legs. You are not interested in facts or truth. You are only interested in defending the religion your mommy taught you. You have admitted on another tread that you are not interested in looking at pesky facts:
    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=12052&page=2&site=3

    Well I spent a lot of time looking at all (then) 4 pages of that thread, and I didn't see anything posted by siegswife that could reasonably be said to imply such a thing. She did say she wasn't searching anymore, but the same could be inferred from (rightly or wrongly) the postings of people such as Alanf and Kent and JanH and Farkel.

    And the point is...????

    I mean, if I missed something, I will stand (or sit or lay) corrected, but otherwise I had better things to do than look for a statement that didn't exist.

    Grrrrrrrrrrr.....

    dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    There is no bias here against Christians.”

    To this I say, “HA!”

    Take this quiz, all of you who are not biased against Christians:

    1. Do you want to barf when you hear “Songs for Worship” advertised on TV?
    2. Do you think non-Christians are smarter than Christians?
    3. Do you know any Christians who are not ‘fundies’?
    4. Can you name 10 possible differences between a ‘fundie’ and a, um, non-fundie?
    5. Do you think that the JWs are the Christian religion that is ‘closest’ to what the Bible teaches? If not, what denomination is?
    6. Do you feel more uncomfortable listening to a Christian explain their beliefs than a Native American?
    7. Do you think many Christians ‘preach’ on this board? If yes, please name 5 different posters here, not JWs, who ‘preach,’ meaning try to convert, people on this board (say in the last few months…two or three, say)
    8. Do feel an almost uncontrollable urge to tell a Christian they are wrong?
    9. Do you feel sorry for Christians?
    10. Do you think any exJW who becomes a Christian has just gone right back to the same crap?
    11. Would you be disappointed if someone you loved became a Christian?
    12. Look back at your last post to a Christian and pretend it was written by a Christian to you, instead of the other way around. would you be offended by it? Would you feel they were being disrespectful of your beliefs?
    13. Do you think that the only reason an exJW would become a Christian is because they didn’t research it as well as you have?
    14. Do you basically think your beliefs are superior to Christian beliefs?

    Ok, this is a quiz just for thinking about. Maybe you, the reader, ARE biased against Christians. Fine! As long as you realize it and accept it. It just seems like a lot of people have themselves fooled into thinking they ‘respect’ Christians and their beliefs when they really don’t. Face it. ‘Own it’, as they say in the program :)

    -LisaBObeesa

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Regardless of one's religious belief or lack of it, there is the tendancy for people to try to prove things to reassure themselves, that their worldview is right, etc. Whether this is true of specific groups is questionable, as I'm sure there are always exceptions to the rule with individuals within a given group.

    It seems to me that all too often discussions of this type is purely academic, though. There is a difference between discussing religious issues and practicing them. Just as one example, what about "applying" the golden rule vs. talking about it? I don't think I can talk about it for very long, but it is possible to practice it in how I talk to others, and certainly one can fake a courteous message even if it isn't from the heart. (don't get me wrong, I am not suggesting you do - I think most here would have a certain distaste for hypocrisy) But it just seems to me that when you have to sit down and write something, even if it is as informal as a posting on a message board on the internet, some forethought is required. I consider myself something of a Christian still, but I suspect many atheists as well as Christians would disagree with me. But this is my approach, I simply try to practice those things Jesus talked about such as love your neighbor as yourself rather than get hung up on who he is, whether I should believe in that identity, how I can get on his good side so I can save myself etc.

    "To the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." -Mt. 25:40

    Intro, the "no class" class.

  • rem
    rem

    dungbeetle,

    That was the statement - you found it. The difference between people like JanH, AlanF, Kent, Farkel, a whole slew of other atheist/agnostic/diest posters on this board, myself and people such as Siegswife is that we have taken the time to look at both sides of the issue before making a judgement whereas many have not. I changed my views because I did extensive research on both sides.

    Siegswife clearly has not and even admitted that he/she is not interested in looking at facts that go agains his/her current worldview. That is why it is frustrating discussing things with such people - they are content in their ignorance. And in their ignorance they feel justified in calling a position that is taken through thoughtful study and research of both sides "extreme".

    Grrrrrrrrrr.......

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    gumby

    I became a christian while i was a jw. It took a year to get dfd.

    I thought i was anointed, i started believing the bible statements about immortality of the spirit, resurrection of jesus' literal body etc. After 2 years of this, i decided to take an honest hard look at all the bible contradictions and problems. After that, I could no longer accept this hodgepodge as coming from a god like the christians claim to worship. I still believe there is some kind of spirit dimension. I admire atheists for their courage. It takes a lot of courage to be one. They have less crutches to lean on. No messiah to come to their rescue.

    What is extreme, what isn't? In school, there are many grades students need to pass through. I see the human experience in a similar way. It is nesecary for most of us to experience religion, faith, even unbelief. What is important? It depends on what our purpose was for coming to this earth. I'm not speaking for atheists, only for the way i see things now, which could change.

    S

  • rem
    rem

    Lisaobesa,

    1. Do you want to barf when you hear “Songs for Worship” advertised on TV?

    Yes

    2. Do you think non-Christians are smarter than Christians?

    No

    3. Do you know any Christians who are not ‘fundies’?

    Yes

    4. Can you name 10 possible differences between a ‘fundie’ and a, um, non-fundie?

    I don't know about 10, but I see a fundie as taking an ultra-literal view of the bible, whereas a liberal Christian does not. A liberal Christian is not hyper apologetic about the bible - they see the inconsistancies, but their faith is based on faith - not a book. Fundies seem to have their faith based on the factuality of the bible, which it is easy to demonstrate it is no.

    5. Do you think that the JWs are the Christian religion that is ‘closest’ to what the Bible teaches? If not, what denomination is?

    No. I think all Christian denominations are just as close to the bible because they all just interpret it in their own way. Actually, I do think fundies are the closest to the bible and that is what makes them so silly.

    6. Do you feel more uncomfortable listening to a Christian explain their beliefs than a Native American?

    I don't feel uncomfortable listening to people explain their beliefs unless they start trying to say their beliefs are based on "facts".

    7. Do you think many Christians ‘preach’ on this board? If yes, please name 5 different posters here, not JWs, who ‘preach,’ meaning try to convert, people on this board (say in the last few months…two or three, say)

    There might be a couple, but I usually ignore their posts. I think Rex and Aguest are probably good examples of this.

    8. Do feel an almost uncontrollable urge to tell a Christian they are wrong?

    Yes, but this may be due to my JW upbringing. ;)

    9. Do you feel sorry for Christians?

    Yes. I feel sorry for anyone who believes in fairy tales. That includes fundamentalists in any religion. I don't feel sorry for the liberal ones, though.

    10. Do you think any exJW who becomes a Christian has just gone right back to the same crap?

    Yep. They missed a prime opportunity to scrutinize their whole belief system, but instead never left their comfort zone. I feel worse for the fundys, but the liberal ones have my respect.

    11. Would you be disappointed if someone you loved became a Christian?

    Yes.

    12. Look back at your last post to a Christian and pretend it was written by a Christian to you, instead of the other way around. would you be offended by it? Would you feel they were being disrespectful of your beliefs?

    Actually, I don't feel offended when Christians challenge me. I just provide facts. I don't see anything wrong with challenging beliefs - I see it as a good thing.

    13. Do you think that the only reason an exJW would become a Christian is because they didn’t research it as well as you have?

    Yes and no. Mostly because they didn't take the time to research, but some just really don't care that much about this stuff and go with the flow. Others get caught up in the Jesus loves message (as I did while leaving the JW's) and see no reason to question it.

    14. Do you basically think your beliefs are superior to Christian beliefs?

    Yes. Otherwise I would be a Christian.

    >It just seems like a lot of people have themselves fooled into thinking they ‘respect’ Christians and their beliefs when they really don’t. Face it. ‘Own it’, as they say in the program :)

    I don't respect all beliefs. I respect informed beliefs - that is why I respect liberal Christians. They know what they are getting into, but they are faith based. I don't respect fundy faith because it is based on ignorance. They think their faith is based on evidence when it is not. They usually don't even know what facts are.

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    If it is, why is that supernatural source so petty, meanspirited, and wishywashy.
    ***It seems to me that MEN are the ones that are petty, meanspirited and wishywashy. Your insistance on questioning MY beliefs is an example of the first two. The fact that you once proclaimed a belief in God and now have taken the opposite stance is an example of the last.

    Why does he play favourites with races?
    ***He doesn't.
    Why does he need something to die (animal or human) to make up for sin?
    ***Because EVERYTHING has to die now. Animals always died, and now, because man has gone backward, from a completed state to something that resembles an animal, or in the case of Christ, a SEED has to die. Are you denying that death is a part of the creation of life? That's not a very factual assessment if you are.

    Why did he not make clear what his words were to man?
    ***I think saying 'Don't do that or you will die' is pretty clear. Don't you understand the meaning of those words?

    Why are the words of the Bible unclear and vague on so many things?
    ***What things? You have to be more specific. I don't find that to be true, but if you do, you have to say what it is.

    Why is there controversy as to what should make up the Bible canon?
    ***Because men have tried to use the Bible to their own ends. I enjoy reading the Book of Enoch and the Lost Books of Eden. I find them to be inspired.

    Why is there controversy as to what is Gods name?
    ***Again, because men kept that truth from other men so that they could hold authority over them. Back to the pettiness and meanspiritedness of them.

    Why would he kill innocent children for their parents sins, or even just for their parents being the wrong race?
    ***Are you talking about the Law? Please give me specifics. He accepted anyone who attached themselves to His people during that time. After Christ died, the Law was done away with.

    Why is there such strong evidence against a worldwide flood?
    ***There are those who say there is very strong evidence that there WAS a worldwide flood. Are you saying that anyone who does not believe YOUR sources is wrong? Have you seen this evidence? What makes it more believable than other sources that say the opposite?

    Why can we trace man back much, much further than the Bible's timeline?
    ***I was never aware that the Bible gave a specific timeline regarding creation except in days, which the Bible also says cannot be counted in the same manner that WE count days.

    Why are women said to be subservient to man in the Bible?
    ***I don't think that it is worded quite that way. It says that she should accept her husbands leadership. That decree happened AFTER they ate from the tree. They weren't CREATED to be that way.

    Why is sex outside of marriage a death penalty offense in some cases, but not others?
    ***Are you talking about when YHWH told Hosea to take a wife of fornication for himself? He did that to demonstrate the fornication that Israel was committing spiritually. He never said that Hosea shouldn't be killed for that, but the fact that he wasn't shows that Israel wasn't keeping the Law very well. Are you also forgetting that the Bible promises that everyone who dies will be resurrected?

    Why would some of Jah's favourite people get to remain his favourite, even while having many, even hundreds, of wives (read "sexual partners")?
    ***Because He isn't as meanspirited as you make Him out to be. If He was, He would completely turn His back on them despite their previous faithfulness, wouldn't He? And where in the Bible does it say that 'sex' is something bad? Since he was married to all those women, why shouldn't he have sex with them?

    Why was John the Baptist baptising?
    ***The people who were getting baptised were demonstrating their desire to be 'cleansed' of their sins.

    Why are SO many bible stories amazingly similar to older mythology of other peoples?
    ***Because there is some truth in lies. It's just incomplete truth. Achilles reminds me that the serpent would bruise the womans seed on the 'heel'. Hercules reminds me of Samson. I know there's more, but I can't think of them right now. There is even some truth in astrology. There is some truth in everything.

    Why did David's baby die as punishment for David's sins?
    ***That I don't know.

    Why would the messege of the Abraham/Isaac sacrifice story be a good example?
    ***Because Abraham was willing to do ANYTHING that God asked him to do, even sacrifice the promised child.

    Why would God play such a cruel practical joke on anyone?
    ***It wasn't a cruel joke. It resulted in the Son of God being from Abrahams seed. It also resulted in Abraham being abundantly blessed. Why do you think that God doesn't have the right to test His Own creation?

    Why were Isrealite womens hymens to be checked by the village elders if acused by their husband of being a non-virgin?
    ***To see if they were? Why do you think that some of these questions are relevant?

    Why are there conflicting creation and flood accounts within the same book?
    ***Please direct me to these conflicting accounts. I'm not familiar with them.

    Why was the first part of the Bible written SO much later than the time period it covers, and by unknown authors?
    ***Because most of these accounts were passed orally over the years. If you've ever read the book of Enoch,(not in the cannon), it seems that writing was actually frowned upon up to a point. A similar thought was expressed in Proverbs where Solomon said, "To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh."

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    siegswife

    What is extreme? Maybe killing is extreme, i'm not sure. If it is, then the ot -old testement- is extreme, because it is full of it. 'Jehovah' is extreme, because he is waiting to kill most everyone, or torture them forever.

    S

  • siegswife
    siegswife

    (((Siegswife clearly has not and even admitted that he/she is not interested in looking at facts that go agains his/her current worldview. That is why it is frustrating discussing things with such people - they are content in their ignorance. And in their ignorance they feel justified in calling a position that is taken through thoughtful study and research of both sides "extreme".)))

    Excuse me? You base your judgement because I said I'm not searching? What makes you think that I NEVER searched? Did I say that? No, YOU did. I have looked into MANY sides of this issue, but I don't feel the need to PROVE that to YOU. Who are you to question me, my beliefs OR my methods? You don't even KNOW me. For someone who doesn't believe in anything you seem to believe YOU have supernatural powers that you can judge someone who's only posted here a few times. Get real, ok?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    siegswife

    Hey, here are some ironies of christianity for you to consider.

    1. Believe first, then see.

    2. Doubt not allowed. No belief, see/get nothing.

    3. If you are saved, it's because god saved you.

    4. If lost to eternal damnation, it's you own damm fault.

    5. Jesus bore mankinds sicknesses, but he was never sick.

    6. Jesus bore the worlds sins, but he sinned not.

    7. God created all in six days, why is it still going on? - stars forming from hydrogen gas clouds

    8. Satan has been conquered, but he rules the whole world.

    9. Jesus started 'the way', paul started 'christianity', peter, with pauls help, started the catholic church.

    10. God created/creates good and evil, yet he is not evil.

    11. Jesus was the greatest man who ever lived, but secular testimony totals less than one page.

    12. Death has been conquered, yet all die.

    S

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