Christians and dubs/treated same here

by gumby 53 Replies latest jw friends

siegswife

1. Believe first, then see.
***I started believing in the existance of God when I was a child. I didn't have any 'Christian' upbringing, but I felt that there was a God.
2. Doubt not allowed. No belief, see/get nothing.
***I've had plenty of doubts about alot of things. In fact, at this point I can almost believe in universal salvation. I doubt it and I have to wonder if doubting it is holding me back. The fear of examining it too deeply acting as a restraint.
3. If you are saved, it's because god saved you.
***True. If you believe in salvation, who else would save you?
4. If lost to eternal damnation, it's you own damm fault.
***I don't think that's true. If someone's 'lost' it's not their fault.
5. Jesus bore mankinds sicknesses, but he was never sick.
***There is something in Isaiah that seems to refute that in a way.
Isaiah 52:14 To the extent that many have stared at him in amazement - so much was the disfigurement as respects his appearance more than that of any other man and as respects his stately form more than that of the sons of mankind -
6. Jesus bore the worlds sins, but he sinned not.
***He was considered accursed by the law by hanging on a stake. Wasn't that the ultimate sin?
7. God created all in six days, why is it still going on? - stars forming from hydrogen gas clouds
***The Bible itself says that God doesn't measure time as we do. I never believed in the six literal days theory. It's not scriptural either.
8. Satan has been conquered, but he rules the whole world.
You know what? This is stuff I'm working on right now as far as understanding. Like I said up farther, there are things that I can catch a glimpse of but my fear is holding me back. I don't think that Satan DOES rule the world anymore in the sense that you are thinking. I'll have to get back to you on this one, because I'm tired and I don't want to say it wrong. It seems that you guys like to jump on everything I say and I want to make it clear what I'm thinking.
9. Jesus started 'the way', paul started 'christianity', peter, with pauls help, started the catholic church.
***I don't agree with the Paul and Peter thing. I don't think Mary is an eternal virgin either.
10. God created/creates good and evil, yet he is not evil.
***Again, this is something I'm working on in myself. God conceived of evil and defined it. But He also set the limits and boundaries of it, just as He did for everything. Any intelligent Being can see that if, for example light exists there is also darkness. The thing about it is He put everything in its place and perspective and some of those things didn't keep their proper place.
11. Jesus was the greatest man who ever lived, but secular testimony totals less than one page.
***Yet 2000 years after His death people still believe in Him. ?
12. Death has been conquered, yet all die.
***Death has been conquered by the death of the Seed and the subsequent Life that results from that death. If we participate in the death with the Seed, then we can participate in being the fruit of that death, the new creation.
rem

siegswife,
I question your beliefs because that is what we do when we discuss such topics as Christianity v. Atheism. It is a natural extension of the topic of discussion to ask for facts when a Christian makes claims. Time and time again we have found that facts are few and far between in Christian argumentation. If you had any desire to do some research you would know this.
Do you understand why it is frustrating to converse with someone who is confident they have the truth, but they are not interested in checking out the facts? Do you see how exhausting it is to discuss issues with people who have no doubts because they looked at "many sides" long ago, but they can't seem to defend their position with facts?
I have every right to question your faith. Your faith requires you to defend it. I just ask that you do it honestly and use evidence based on fact. Is that too much to ask? If so, then why are you taking part in these discussions?
rem
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
..........Bertrand Russell
Satanus

siegswife
Keep thinking. That's partly why i composed these statements.
Gotta crash too.
S
siegswife

(((I question your beliefs because that is what we do when we discuss such topics as Christianity v. Atheism. It is a natural extension of the topic of discussion to ask for facts when a Christian makes claims. Time and time again we have found that facts are few and far between in Christian argumentation. If you had any desire to do some research you would know this.
Do you understand why it is frustrating to converse with someone who is confident they have the truth, but they are not interested in checking out the facts? Do you see how exhausting it is to discuss issues with people who have no doubts because they looked at "many sides" long ago, but they can't seem to defend their position with facts?
I have every right to question your faith. Your faith requires you to defend it. I just ask that you do it honestly and use evidence based on fact. Is that too much to ask? If so, then why are you taking part in these discussions?)))
rem
***How can you assert that the sources that you use are facts? Did you come to these conclusions by your own physical research into these things, or are you basing your assumptions upon the research of others? If you didn't actually do the research (other than reviewing the research of others) aren't you putting your faith in the words of others also? Can you provide me with irrefutable facts that are based on your own observations and arrived at AFTER you have a complete understanding of that which you are refuting (the Bible)? How can you disprove something if you don't fully understand it?
Why should I be first to prove the basis of my faith if you can't first provide the basis of yours? Why should I have to read the writings of other men to understand your position? If I don't believe the words of other men, aren't I being more skeptical and inclined to want REAL proof more than you?
It appears to me that we ALL base our beliefs on just that - belief. How are you different than me in that respect? Do you claim to have a complete knowledge of the Bible, as your starting point, that you can then disprove it? And are you claiming that you have FACTS that have not been otherwise refuted by other secular sources?
rem

Siegswife,
>>How can you assert that the sources that you use are facts?<<
All sources use the same facts. Facts are facts. They are only interpreted differently.
>>Did you come to these conclusions by your own physical research into these things, or are you basing your assumptions upon the research of others?<<
All research is built from the research of others. You weed out the wheat from the chaff by objectively examining all sides of an issue an selecting the position which best fits the universally accepted facts.
>>If you didn't actually do the research (other than reviewing the research of others) aren't you putting your faith in the words of others also?<<
Not really because other's research can be verified. The facts that I value the most are usually universally accepted - that means that both sides accept the validity of the fact. It is only the interpretation of the facts that must fit. This is difficult to figure out objectively without honestly researching all sides of an issue. This argument does not give your side any support anyway.
>>Can you provide me with irrefutable facts that are based on your own observations and arrived at AFTER you have a complete understanding of that which you are refuting (the Bible)? <<
I don't suppose there is anything that is irrefutable. There are only varying degrees of likelihood. After objectively looking at the data and calculating the likelihood of certain interpretations of facts, a position can be taken. I know many facts about the Bible. Do I have a complete understanding of the Bible? Probably not. Neither do you. I understand it fully as a creation of man - you see it as a creation of god. I say the facts are in my favor.
>>How can you disprove something if you don't fully understand it?
I don't have to understand every theological argument to see that most of the books of the bible were not written by their namesakes. Do you need to completely understand the Book of Mormon to disprove it? I think not.
>>Why should I be first to prove the basis of my faith if you can't first provide the basis of yours? <<
We have provided the basis of our understanding. It is not based on faith but evidence. This has been shown countless times in previous posts. Never have we seen the same from Christians. Why are you afraid of discussing factual information and evidence? There is no fear on the non-Christian side.
>>Why should I have to read the writings of other men to understand your position? <<
You don’t, but you will see more detail and be shown references to look up the facts yourself if you do. You don’t need to take my word for it, the information is out there.
>>If I don't believe the words of other men, aren't I being more skeptical and inclined to want REAL proof more than you? <<
What is real proof to you? What make the words of the men you do believe better than mine? Because they “feel” right? You don’t know what being skeptical is. You can’t be skeptical if you don’t at least look at the other side of the coin. You are confusing skepticism with stubbornness.
>>It appears to me that we ALL base our beliefs on just that - belief. How are you different than me in that respect? <<
There are beliefs based on facts and there are beliefs based on myth. That is the difference.
>>Do you claim to have a complete knowledge of the Bible, as your starting point, that you can then disprove it? <<
I know enough to know that it is false. Ask yourself the same question regarding the Book of Mormon, or the Koran.
>>And are you claiming that you have FACTS that have not been otherwise refuted by other secular sources?<<
I certainly have facts in which people have unsuccessfully tried to refute. There are others that are not so clear cut, but are still very convincing. Those are not really facts, though, but interpretations of facts. I think it’s a good thing that people try to refute things. It keeps us all honest.
rem
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
..........Bertrand Russell
Teirce

(off topic) SaintSatan, I believe I owe you a reference on the secular humanism of Greek deities, but who knows where the original thread got to. Here's some excerpts from 'Early Greek Philosophy' , http://plato.evansville.edu/public/burnet/intro.htm :
V. Cosmogony
"Nor is it only in this way that Hesiod shows himself a child of his time. His Theogony is at the same time a Cosmogony, though it would seem that here he was following the older tradition rather than working out a thought of his own. At any rate, he only mentions the two great cosmogonical figures, Chaos and Eros, and does not really bring them into connection with his system. They seem to belong, in fact, to an older stratum of speculation. The conception of Chaos represents a distinct effort to picture the beginning of things. It is not a formless mixture, but rather, as its etymology indicates, the yawning gulf or gap where nothing is as yet. We may be sure that this is not primitive. Primitive man does not feel called on to form an idea of the very beginning of all things; he takes for granted that there was something to begin with. The other figure, that of Eros, was doubtless intended to explain the impulse to production which gave rise to the whole process. These are clearly speculative ideas, but in Hesiod they are blurred and confused."
IX. The Secular Character of Ionian Science
"We must not be misled by the use of the word theos in the remains that have come down to us. It is quite true that the Ionians applied it to the "primary substance" and to the world or worlds, but that means no more and no less than the use of the divine epithets "ageless" and "deathless" to which we have referred already. In its religious sense the word "god" always means first and foremost an object of worship, but already in Homer that has ceased to be its only signification. Hesiod's Theogony is the best evidence of the change. It is clear that many of the gods mentioned there were never worshiped by any one, and some of them are mere personifications of natural phenomena, or even of human passions. This non-religious use of the word "god" is characteristic of the whole period we are dealing with, and it is of the first importance to realize it. No one who does so will fall into the error of deriving science from mythology."
Mommie Dark

Sieg's wife said, "If at one time some of the people who are presently atheists believed in God and His salvation for those of their faith, and now, because of the bOrg, don't believe in God at all, that is going in an extreme direction"
I wonder why people make this fundamental logical error ALL THE TIME? I certainly did not lose my religious jones 'because of the Borg'. I lost the desire or need for an imaginary Skydaddy after careful and lengthy research and study. I discovered that all religion is merely rank superstition based on a childish fear of living without some Eternal Parent to make sense of the randomness of life.
I realize that Christians and other religion addicts are too scared to consider a life without their crutch, but frankly I really get peeved at Christers who insist there is something wrong with me because I no longer subscribe to their favorite fantasy.
I consider my defection from religious idiocy to be a move toward sanity and decency. I resent being told I have made some kneejerk extreme reaction in a backlash against Borg teaching; nothing could be further from the truth. It took ten years of careful research and study to draw my conclusions, and there is nothing 'extreme' about them. I jettisoned that which I found useless and without factual foundation; God was the last bit of pointless cargo jettisoned, and oh! the relief at not having to carry around that useless old sod anymore!
I believed in Gawd and religious salvation packages because I was misled. Once I got accurate information, I was able to see the stupidity of the whole sin/salvation guilt trip, and began to build a better saner value system based on common sense and essential humanity.
When Christers learn that their right to their fantasy ends at the tip of their own nose, I will be happy to leave them to their fantasy. If they try to shove Jesus up my nose, they must be prepared for the appropriate reaction. I don't want or need their opiate in any form.
LittleToe

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said to him, "Are you a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
Joh 18:38 Pilate said to him, "What is truth?"
Anyone want to define truth or fact?
To my mind it takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does a believer.
It's a process of using your own reason to establish your own beliefs, based on the information that you let your own senses take in.
At the end of the day what will be is what will be, be it a judgement day or universal entrophy.
What I object to is being told what I must believe, and how I must believe it.
Surely we can agree on that <vbg>.
LT
"That's another fine mess you've got us into, Stanley!!!"
gumby

Siegswife:
I am sorry that I started this thread and your the one who is having to deal with the challenges.
I however think you are doing an awsome job!!!!
My mate is still a dub and I do not have a lot of time to spend here though I WISH I DID.
I JUST WANT TO THANK ALL WHO ARE POSTING TO THIS THREAD AND DOING A GREAT JOB AT STAYING PEACEFULL WITH ONE ANOTHER COMPARED TO OTHER TOPICS I'VE SEEN ON THIS BOARD.
I think all SHOULD HAVE EVIDENCE to back up what they say as far as reality to evidence is possible.
Perhaps we could take some of these issues one at a time.
When I get the time I would like to give my input on why I am still a believer and will do my best to post EVIDENCE that keeps me a believer.
Again....thanks for all the good responses and consideration for each other...Your freind...Gumby
dungbeetle

Posted by Gumby:
<"I am sorry that I started this thread..."> Yeah I can just imagine that you are!!!
<"I think all SHOULD HAVE EVIDENCE to back up what they say as far as reality to evidence is possible.">
Why?
dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.

Christians and dubs/treated same here

Share this