Christians and dubs/treated same here

by gumby 53 Replies latest jw friends

rem

Little Toe,
To my mind it takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does a believer.
It's a process of using your own reason to establish your own beliefs, based on the information that you let your own senses take in.
Does it take as much faith to disbelieve in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy as it does to believe in them?
I didn't start out as an atheist. I finally had to admit I was one after much study and research. That was one of the scariest days of my life because of my Christian upbringing. I have nothing against a concept of god - if he/she/it/they exist then that's great. But the problem is that there is no evidence for the existence of any gods. I don't find tradition and obvious myth as evidence.
It is true that we establish our beliefs upon what information we decide to take in. I contend that atheists have decided to take in more information and have a broader data base from which to draw conclusions. We don't shy away from information that could potentially shatter our world view. That is how we got here in the first place. To me, that takes real courage.
rem
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
..........Bertrand Russell
funkyderek

LittleToe,
Anyone want to define truth or fact?
From dictionary.com (edited for clarity)
truth:
Conformity to fact or actuality.
A statement proven to be or accepted as true
fact:
Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed
A real occurrence; an event
To my mind it takes as much faith to be an atheist as it does a believer.
In your mind perhaps, but not in reality. If atheists have as much faith as believers, then are there any people without faith, or with less faith? If so, what do they believe? (If not, of course, faith becomes trivial and irrelevant.)
Do Muslims have less faith than Christians? Clearly not. Is there then any way to distinguish between what Muslims believe and what Christians believe? Is it a battle of who has the strongest faith, or should evidence come into it somewhere?
--
Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire
Julie

1. Do you want to barf when you hear “Songs for Worship” advertised on TV?
Yes and then I wonder "How much does the God-business contribute to the national GDP??"
2. Do you think non-Christians are smarter than Christians?
No but maybe less accepting of bible atrocities as "divine judgement" and more willing to accept mortality.
3. Do you know any Christians who are not ‘fundies’?
Oh yes, lot of my family and friends are Catholic. I love them all.
4. Can you name 10 possible differences between a ‘fundie’ and a, um, non-fundie?
There is only one that counts. The non-fundie (i.e.Catholic) really has little idea of what is in the bible besides the happy stories they hear in church. The fundy is fully aware of the most horrible ones and can spend hours justsifying them. They are the ones that make you wonder if they "thought" they received "divine guidance" would they also committ such horrors? Never can tell. You might note that the Taliban are also fundies.
5. Do you think that the JWs are the Christian religion that is ‘closest’ to what the Bible teaches? If not, what denomination is?
They all are according to their own spin opn things.
6. Do you feel more uncomfortable listening to a Christian explain their beliefs than a Native American?
No.
7. Do you think many Christians ‘preach’ on this board? If yes, please name 5 different posters here, not JWs, who ‘preach,’ meaning try to convert, people on this board (say in the last few months…two or three, say)
Yes. I don't know wnough here to name five but feel two easily fit and likely more: Rex and AGuest.
8. Do feel an almost uncontrollable urge to tell a Christian they are wrong?
No. Only if they try to convince me they are right and I should think like them.
9. Do you feel sorry for Christians?
No. Some really need it.

10. Do you think any exJW who becomes a Christian has just gone right back to the same crap?
No it is different crap.
11. Would you be disappointed if someone you loved became a Christian?
No, so long as they don't bother me with it, the choice is theirs.
12. Look back at your last post to a Christian and pretend it was written by a Christian to you, instead of the other way around. would you be offended by it? Would you feel they were being disrespectful of your beliefs?
No Imerely demand the same from Rex as demands from others.
13. Do you think that the only reason an exJW would become a Christian is because they didn’t research it as well as you have?
I believe a personal "need" comes into play here.,
14. Do you basically think your beliefs are superior to Christian beliefs?
No, mine just aren't based on emotion.
I have one long standing question that is open to any takers. Can you explain to me how the atrocities in the bible display anything remotely resembling Enlightenment?
Julie
Satanus

Teirce
Thanks for the reference. I will be reading it.
It's sad that christianity came along and wiped out most of that philosophical wisdom. Maybe because christianity was a bit warm and fuzzy at its start and it filled the moral vacuum that was the roman empire in the second century. Cold hard reality of the greeks was more than the masses could recieve at the time. In its place they opted for the warm soft trap, which many are still in 2000 years later.
S
Tina

Hi Jules,
I too wait(and not with bated breath lor I would have died of asphyxsia long ago,lol) for a logical and rational explanation of biblical 'enlightment'. Where can it be found?
You start with Genesis and get a murder with the original twinkie defense(AmI my brothers keeper?) Then it goes on to wars and clans warring like the hatfields and McCoys.
Lots wife transmogrified into salt for the simple human act of looking back longingly at home. The god mandated filicides. Some of these atrocities intervened with by a whimsical diety at the last minute.
What enlightenment comes from the story of Job,other than one can be stomped and 'goodness' actually costs more than it should.
What enlightened message was given by forcing Ezekial to lead the people in an atonement ritual that involved eating barley cakes mixed with excrement?
What one sees is a random morality message by god that states, Just Do it because I said so!(I think the Nike people got their slogan from the OT) lol...... hug,T
Carl Sagan on balancing openness to new ideas with skeptical scrutiny..."if you are open to the point of gullibility and have not an ounce of skeptical sense-you cannot distinguish useful ideas from worthless ones."
Stacey

Kinda funny, after I left the JWs I was shown christianity. I lived it and believed in mainstream christianity for a few years. I used to have this -need- to help other ex-jws who I was so sure were very lost without the "real Jesus", without the way the truth and the life. I would have been on this site doing the same thing these people here were doing.
Not to put down what anyone believes. Because I know that many do these things out of their own concern for others, because they believe they have lifesaving information. Just like we all did as jws.
But I no longer think this way. Like many others here, I was put to the place of researching what I believed, and even researching the ideas that were opposite of mine. And with what I found, perhaps I lost "faith". Because nothing that I learned, could be upheld by facts and truth. And I'm sorry, but I have the power of reasoning, and I wont live my life not using it. My reasoning brought me to the conclusion that I was perhaps being blind, yet again, to facts.
I no longer consider myself a christian. I thrive on the questions in life. The path I have taken so far has been wonderful. Every day brings more questions, and my thoughts and ideas change with every experience that I have. Why do we have to think that we know what a god or creator wants from us? Revealed religions? Revealed holy books? They just dont work for me.
Why does everyone think theirs is the correct version of the truth? Kind of interesting.
I have no point, just rambling.
Stacey
Satanus

Stacey
That was a very kind post. I have come a similar path and am at about a similar position now.
You observed that dubs and christians both believe they have something special with which they feel the need to save others. This urge is in many cults, so much so, that it is now used as a sign or symptom of a cult. This applies not just to the christian group of cults, but some political groups as well. I went to a few of the lyndon larouche meetings. They also have this attitude. They are a political cult.
A brotherhood of man/woman, i believe is a healthier view than the position of being elite. The socalled mystics feel a conection with, not only all people, but with everything.
S
gumby

SaintSatan:
Please don't take this personal... but.......what is with your name here? I thought to myself......I hope this guy dosen't believe in satan and now no longer believes in God. I would wonder if facts that are lacking are what makes non believers disbelieve in the bible, then why would anyone believe in satan who has not been factually proven existant? And where would anyone who disbelieves the bible get the name and idea of satan from?
LittleToe

Hi Rem,
Sorry about the delay in reply, I just got back from the meeting.
Gotta say that I thought that the material for the third talk on false prophets was a little lame.
This is kinda off and on-thread, nonetheless I'm not the only psedo-intellectual here, so my 2p is worth as much as anyone else's, I guess...
Quote:
>> Does it take as much faith to disbelieve
>> in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy as it
>> does to believe in them?
Depends on your perspective.
If you're a kid that has no reason to disbelieve them, and has been taught them for a source that they rely upon (i.e. their parents), then you may believe in them.
Please note that I intentionally used the word "believer" to be as encompassing as possible with my statements. I wasn't just addressing dub/Christian belief.
Quote:
>> I have nothing against a concept of god
>> if he/she/it/they exist then that's great.
>> But the problem is that there is no evidence
>> for the existence of any gods.
Erm, okay, so the clockwork and orderly universe and macrocosm don't convince you.
That's fine, but it sure as hell (grave <g>) gives me pause for thought. Again, perhaps we have a differant perspective.
Quote:
>> I contend that atheists have decided to take in
>> more information and have a broader data base from
>> which to draw conclusions. We don't shy away from
>> information that could potentially shatter our world
>> view.
Sorry, I have to state that I find that comment condescending and elitest. Do all atheists really share your view?
Do you have supporting evidence for that contention?
Do you even have polls or statistical information to verify that claim?
Alternatively could it be that you have decided to filter differant information from your senses, reason on it in a differant way, and have come up with a differant (albeit possibly just as plausible) conclusion?
I've had my world view shattered on several ocassions, and have grown from it. I've never shied away from ANY information. I can't say that I've been exposed to ALL information, nor had time to FULLY consider ALL the information that I've been exposed to. Nonetheless, I have been exposed to a quantity of information that I believe sufficient to stake my life and beliefs upon. Likely you have too.
Due to the information that we have come into contact with, and our reaction to it, we have arrived at a differant perspective, and reached a differant conclusion.
But still I absorb more, as I assume that you do...
I'll continue this in the next section, on truth...
LittleToe

Hi Funky Derek,
Quote:
>> truth:
>> Conformity to fact or actuality.
>> A statement proven to be or accepted as true
Five year old kid finds money under his pillow, on several independantly verifiable ocassions. All references that child is exposed to (i.e. parents) substantiate that this is evidence of "tooth fairy".
We are all children in the grand scheme of things - a mere drop in the ocean of life on a spec of dirt in the universe.
So, as Pilate said - "What is truth?".
I think you'll find human truth changes year by year.
Parallels there with "the truth", perhaps? Hmmmmm.
Quote:
>> fact:
>> Knowledge or information based on real occurrences
>> Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed
>> A real occurrence; an event
Same argument as the one on truth, with the conclusion that "scientific fact changes year by year."
Quote:
>>>>
To my mind it takes as much faith to
>>>> be an atheist as it does a believer.

>> In your mind perhaps, but not in reality.
>> If atheists have as much faith as believers,
>> then are there any people without faith,
>> or with less faith? If so, what do they believe?
Should I use the same argument again with referance to "reality"?
Hmmmm.
Reality has a lot to do with perspective and experience, too, even if many people share the same belief (e.g. Britain is huge if you live in it, but tiny if you live in the states).
Time often exposes one years reality to be last years ignorance. Human truth, scientific fact and perceived reality are all relative.

Christians and dubs/treated same here

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