Good post my dear, I can partially agree but if you check all of the early posts, they were mostly one liners, with mocking, derogatory and inflamatory remarks about Islam, and my getting in was to balance the scales somewhat. This was not intended to offend anyone nor to be personal attacks, but after I posted I did get attacked eventhough my thoughts were on religion and government in general. So in order to enlighten and change the direction of a few of those who like to bully those who have alternative views, we went in and unintended direction. This site in my opinion is for all points of view and should be full of stimulating and engaging conversation. As a matter of fact more ideas probably came out on this one subject then most. From my perspective it has been quite enjoyable. None of us can change the world, most of us can not even change ourselves or our own point of view unless a new idea and way of thinking is exposed and examined. Great to know you. Nothing personal.
Lets say something positive about Islam!
by eyeslice 107 Replies latest jw friends
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2112
easyshi-
You are correct that not every terrorist is a Muslum. However the vast majority are. To try and make the point that every military conflict is terrorism is childish. The people fighting in the revolutionary war were not terrorist as they did not target non-combatants. I will agree that McVeigh was a terrorist. Blair and Bush are not. The reason we are in Iraq is not because of 9/11, and Bush never said it was. 9/11 was the catalist to the WAR ON TERRORISM, of which Iraq is step two. Bush declaired war on the terrorists and any country that harbors or aids terrorists. Are you going to deny the Sadam was not harboring and aiding terrorists? And don't even go into the WMD's as there have been many Chemical and biological WMD's found in Iraq, as well as a lot of documentation that proves he had them. Name me one time any US president has called for any nation or religion to be wiped off the planet.
Anyway, back on point, many here have no ill feelings toward Muslums, but it is, just like with the JW's, the religion we have problems with. This is not meant as an attack of your beliefes so let me give an example. You and many Muslums say that Islam is a peaceful and tollerant religion. Even King Cirus lived and ruled this way. Yet when the "radical" factions quote the Quran with satements such as "the infidels must die". And Muslum clerics lead thousands of fellow Muslums in chants of America must die, and Isreal must die. Why do you and other "peaceful" Muslums not stand up to them and say publicly that they are wrong? I don't mean just here on this forum but in the international arena. I know many Muslums say "that is not what Islam teaches" but they will not say that terrorism is wrong. When a terrorist blows up a shcool bus full of children and the bomb has rat poison in it so that minor wounds won't stop bleeding, "peaceful" Muslum leaders will not condemn the terrorists. Why? If you could explain that it would go a long way to getting to a peaceful understanding of your riligion.
Thanks
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dido
Question- why is the muslim faith the fastest growing religion in the world?
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easyshi
I think you are asking the muslims to do something that you won't do and that is to condemn Bush and Blair as being what they are, terrorists and war mongers. Many churches and religious organizations in the US backed Bush in the beginning, now that he has proven to be a liar, are those same organizations rising up in condemnation? No, because they fear personal attack and have been drilled to think that we will be attacked at any moment .Are you trying to tell me that none of those bombs fell on innocent civilians, that none of those bombs took away parents of civilians, that none of those bombs hit hospitals, that none of those bombs took away peoples' livelyhood, that none of those bombs helped to cause disease and bring about unsanitary conditions. Just like many of the people in the US and Britain don't like Bush and Blair, not everyone in Iraq loved Saddam. But would it be appropriate for another government to come and do that type damage to the US just because leader of the US is hated, and believe me he is. Most of my posts will lead you back to the same thing. There is no other country that has taken it upon itself to travel 1,000's of miles away to bomb and occupy to this degree. It is probably why we watch others so close and not let them alone to build there countries. That way we can bully and not be challenged.
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easyshi
Unfortunately great fertilizer helps things to grow and the blood of a people is a great fertilizer.
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My MILs worst nightmare, a nonJW
I can partially agree but if you check all of the early posts, they were mostly one liners, with mocking, derogatory and inflamatory remarks about Islam, and my getting in was to balance the scales somewhat.
Point taken and understood.
Once you switch to talking about governments, then what becomes important is what the leaders in power believe, not the individuals. The people of Iran have always been thought to be progressive, modern and moderate, but they are not the ones in power There is instability inherent in most Muslim governments and the likely succesors are either Military Coups or religious fundamentalists who believe that Islam should be spread throughout the world. Power in the wrong hands is always dangerous.
Fortunately in Democracy's the people have the ability to vote and effect change. Bush is not president for life unlike some Muslim countries leaders. I don't agree with all of his methods, however I believe he is right in asserting that Muslim countries run by former military leaders or fundamentalists pose a threat to the rest of the world.
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My MILs worst nightmare, a nonJW
I think you are asking the muslims to do something that you won't do and that is to condemn Bush and Blair as being what they are, terrorists and war mongers
You are starting to whine again. You point fingers away from Muslim's as if that makes them any better or different. Where have I seen that before?
Bush misjudged the response of the Iraqi people. He didn't anticipate the sectarian issues that has divided Muslim's for thousands of years.
One can make the point that we should leave them to fight amongst themselves. OK
But that doesn't change my initial assertion. If the leaders of the Muslim countries had the intelligence and ability to come together and form a unified front (which they will never do in my opinion), they would seek to convert the rest of the world by force.
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2112
Please don't get me wrong I do not like war or killing. I do believe it is a "nessasary evil". Just because Bush/Blair declaird war and are fighting a war makes them war mongers. If 9/11 or anything like it did not happen then we would not even have this conversation, and yes thay would be much better.As far as Bush being hated by America, yes many people do, I don't hate him but that does not mean I agree with eveything he has done. We did not go to Iraq because the Iraq people hated Sadam, so that is a mute point. As far as civilians being killed yes that happens in war that is just one reasn war sucks. However civilians are not targeted. Yes I know that at times some(very few) soldiers do attack cilivians yet in most of those cases it is the American or British Military(governments) that discovers this info and then prosecutes their own soldiers. I dare say that very few other countries do this. There are some governments that even encourage this behavior.
All that being said, you did not answer my questions. Not that I really expected you to. That is why so many people have a distaste for any religion. We all say that "nobody is perfect" but still defend our current beliefs as if they are perfect. I believe you to be an honest persn who really believes what you say. Please answer my questions dirrectly, don't just keep saying Bush lied. That could be another thread.
I'll leave you with this for now, It is one thing to die for wones beliefes, it is quite another to kill for them.
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easyshi
Your point is true and that is why it is important for us to understand we cannot go into independent countries and make changes based on our irrational fear. I must say it again, if you believe that, then it is appropriate for others to do that to us because of fear. Is it appropriate for another government to target Bush or Blair for assassination? Of course not. But that is what we do. Being an uninvited guest in a soverign country inorder to quell our fear and overthrow a leader is wrong . We would not accept it from others, period! What is even worse is to do it based on a lie, if our position is so good and strong we shouldn't have to lie. Let's do one other thing if you don't mind, let's add up all of the WMD's of the US and then compare them to any other country or region and ask who should fear whom. Let me give you an example; I am a country and I have one nuclear device would I try and use it knowing that I would be utterly destroyed? What would that prove and to whom could I turn to as a friend? No one... Westerners and christians of all ilks have lived in the middle east for thousands of years mostly in peace. Go to most countries over in the middle east and you will see for yourself. Those of us in the know also understand Iraq and all of the other countries the region even under Saddam were very hospitable to westerners. You may have to respect some different customs but you have always been welcome, and that's a fact.
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My MILs worst nightmare, a nonJW
Westerners and christians of all ilks have lived in the middle east for thousands of years mostly in peace. Go to most countries over in the middle east and you will see for yourself. Those of us in the know also understand Iraq and all of the other countries the region even under Saddam were very hospitable to westerners. You may have to respect some different customs but you have always been welcome, and that's a fact.
You mean the custom of Shites and Sunnis depositing nearly one hundred mutilated corpes a day for the past few months in the streets of Baghdad. So they are hospitable to Westerners, just not fellow Muslim's?