Satanus, You have no more freedom than I have. After all, Christians are "not under law." Because we are not, for us "Everything is permissible—but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible—but not everything is constructive." (Gal. 5:18; 1 Cor. 10:23) Paul was here referring to Christian freedom. However, the same can be said of anyone's freedom. Including your own. Mike
Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.
by proplog2 73 Replies latest jw friends
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proplog2
Christian:
Please read threads completely before you comment.
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a Christian
Prop,
That's a very tall order. Some threads are many pages long. I read much of this thread before commenting. As I did so I think I caught your premise. You feel "Babylon the Great" was not meant to represent a religious empire or system but a commercial one. You tell us why you feel that way. I told you why I disagree. "Babylon" was certainly viewed by First Century Jews (and the New Testament was written by First Century Christian Jews) as the place of their bondage. That being the case, it seems to me that a symbolic "Babylon" might very well have been meant to represent a place where Christians would one day find themselves in bondage.
Because you started this thread does that mean no one here should, in that thread, suggest an alternative viewpoint?
Mike
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Satanus
achristian
You have no more freedom than I have.
That is true in the sense that we have total freedom. You and i can do anything, if we are willing to put in the effort and pay the price. However, i suspect that you didn't mean it that way, because of your qualifier:
After all, Christians are "not under law."
We have as much freedom as we give oursleves. As a jw, i had a bit of freedom. As a christian, i had more freedom. At this moment, i have even more freedom, and i am working on freeing myself even more.
S
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proplog2
A Christian:
I don't care what people choose to discuss on a thread that I start. I'm not territorial. My objections are not with you. You aren't claiming that it is impossible for Babylon the Great to be a political entity. Are you?
The Watchtower claims that Babylon the Great cannot be a political entity. And I have rebutted the fallcious reasoning used to make their claim.
Now you claim that Babylon the Great is a religious entity. And you make that claim even though Revelation 18 never uses the word "religion". It doesn't mention idols. It doesn't mention altars, temples, priests. So there is little evidence for your claim.
I'm alright with that as long as you don't make the argument that Babylon the Great cannot be a political entity.
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a Christian
Prop,
You wrote: You aren't claiming that it is impossible for Babylon the Great to be a political entity. Are you? Of course not. You may be right and I may be wrong. Or I may be right and you may be wrong. Or we may both be wrong. However, I think my interpretation is a very plausible one. For Babylon was the place where God's people were held in bondage, as organized Christian religions now hold nearly all Christians in spiritual bondage. If someone's loss of freedom was not meant to be portrayed in Rev. 18 by their being a resident of "Babylon the Great" why was this symbolic entity not referred to in Rev. as "Persia the Great" or "Nineveh the Great" etc. ? Now I suppose you might say that Revelation's "Babylon the Great" may deprive its inhabitants of political freedom or economic freedom. But I don't think those freedoms are what Bible writers were ever most concerned with. Mike -
proplog2
A Christian:
The word "freedom" or "captivity" is not mentioned in Revelation 18. So why does this become a central part of your interpretation?
The command is "Get out of her my people". What are God's people doing in "false religion" or "false christianity"? If they have the label "my people" than they are free of any enslaving deception. The command to "Get out of her" is given to those who have already left behind the enslaving ideas of this world.
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a Christian
Prop,
You wrote: The word "freedom" or "captivity" is not mentioned in Revelation 18. So why does this become a central part of your interpretation?
As I have said, Babylon was the nation which took God's people as captives and it was also the place where they were long held as slaves. So for the Jewish people, both at the time Revelation was written and even still today, the words "Babylon" and "bondage" were virtually synonymous. How this obvious symbolism can be missed by any reader of Revelation is beyond me.
If I were to write an allegory in which the city of "Washington D.C." played a central role, would it really be necessary for me to use the words "government" or "politics" to tip off my readers that those things were what I intended to draw attention to by my use of "Washington D.C." ?
You wrote: The command is "Get out of her my people". What are God's people doing in "false religion" or "false christianity"?
First of all, I don't view "Babylon the Great" as being "false religion" or even as being "false Christianity". I understand "Babylon the Great" as portraying corrupted Christianity, parts of which God approves of and parts of which he disapproves of. Just as I do not believe the legalistic Judaism which existed at the time of Christ, was considered by him as being "false" religion or "false" Judaism. Rather, I believe the Judaism which existed at the time of Christ was viewed by him as being a corrupted form true worship, a worship which God then partly approved of and partly disapproved of.
You wrote: If they have the label "my people" than they are free of any enslaving deception.
I disagree. Again consider the corrupted Jewish religion which existed at the time of Christ. Even though virtually all aspects of organized Judaism which then existed had become corrupted by various manmade traditions and teachings, Christ's followers and even Jesus Christ himself actively participated in Jewish religious services as they then existed.
You wrote: The command to "Get out of her" is given to those who have already left behind the enslaving ideas of this world.
I don't see it that way. I believe a time is coming when organized Christianity will be banned worldwide, possibly under penalty of death to those who continue to support it. As I said earlier, I believe this ban may be imposed upon all religion by a worldwide government. Or maybe radical Islam will one day conquer the world and then do on a global scale what it now does on a local scale when its practitioners gain political control of a region, ban all other religions and be particularly hard on Christians.
At that time many Christians will no doubt have a very hard time letting go of their particular Christian sectarian practices. By failing to understand that true Christianity is a way of life based upon a personal relationship with God and Christ, not a relationship with a manmade religious organization centered around a Church building, I fear many Christians will then refuse to "get out of" "Babylon the Great" and, by so doing, I fear many Christians may then unnecessarily end up losing their lives.
Mike
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proplog2
A Christian
OK I get it. You are in the process of figuring out exactly what you believe.
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Kenneson
A Christian writes that Babylon the Great tells "Christians what they must think, what they must do, what they must believe, how they must act, where, how and when they must worship God." Sounds like a perfect description of the Watchtower Society.
Yes, I can also "see" in my mind's "eye" the merchants weeping when there will be no more quick builds.
Could "get out of her my people" mean that people should get out of the Watchtower Society too? Some view it as corrupted Christianity, right along with all those other false religions.