Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 73 Replies latest jw friends

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  proplog2

  Bump!!!

  In one week some on this board will be at the book study considering the topic "Identifying Babylon the Great"

  In case some haven't seen this page I brought it up for air.

  Keep in mind two scriptures for the book study Isaiah 23:17 and Nahum 2:4

  You might even ask the book study conductor how it is possible for Ninevah and Tyre, both political entities, to commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth when they say Babylon the Great CAN't be a political entity because it commits prostitution with the kings of the earth.

  If there is a slim chance that any Watchtower writers are reading this think about how you are deceiving people. You know you have no answer to this.
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  proplog2

  Tuesday Nov 7 the bookstudy is about "Identifying Babylon the Great"

  So I thought I would bump this topic one more time.
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  Star Moore

  Hello Prolog:
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  Star Moore

  However, it is interesting to note that the USA is simultaneously the wealthiest entity on earth and like ancient Babylon is one of the most religious of the wealthy nations on earth.

  Hi prolog2 : I have for a while now thought the USA was Babylon the Great. To me, it's totally political as is most of the happenings in Revelation and Daniel.
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  proplog2

  Star:

  Whatever Babylon the Great may be I am sure it isn't some "world empire of false religion". The Watchtower can't defend that position at all.
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  LittleToe

  Great thread

  Just to pick up on the Preterist view: Some modify it and apply some of the apocalyptic symbolism to an epic internal struggle in the believer, in an attempt to get around the short-term ramifications that Didier suggests.
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  Doubting Bro

  Good points by all. Proplog2, I never really gave the WTS explaination of who BTG was a second thought. The way they explain it, along with not checking any sources to see if their explaination is true, seems so reasonable that I always believed. However, your points have given me things to think about.

  Rev seems to indicate to me that BTG is a coordinated entity. That to me is one of the biggest holes in the world empire of false religion theory. Because, we all know that religion is anything but united or coordinated. I would counter that argument in my own mind by saying that Satan was behind all false religion and therefore it was united in its opposition to truth. I've obviously had to rethink that position. I now am leaning towards two possibilities (already mentioned): 1) Its Rome and the book is not prophetic or 2) Its some sort of power that will rise in the future and be even greater than Rome, UK, US or anything that has risen before (if the book is indeed prophetic).

  As I was sitting in the CBS last night, I almost made the comment about other civilizations contribution to religion from material that I recently studied in a Western Civilization class. But, my young child distracted me so I wasn't able to get that in. I wish I had seen this post prior because I'm afforded a fair amount of latitude in my comments and quite frankly, I can couch things in WT doublespeak well enough to plant some seeds. I'm not currently a BSO but substitute a fair amount. On those nights, I really push things. But, my bookstudy isn't exactly the sharpest bunch so much goes over their heads.

  I did, however, make a comment at the very end while reviewing the chapter. There were I think 6 criteria listing what "true religion" is. One of those was showing love and one was being no part of the world. I made the last comment of the night and stated that if ANY religion was missing even ONE of these criteria, then they could NOT be true religion. I said this strictly for the benefit of my wife because I'm building the groundwork to share the UN fiasco with her. And, I'm planning on using this chapter to hang the WTS on their own words.
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  Narkissos

  Some modify it and apply some of the apocalyptic symbolism to an epic internal struggle in the believer

  The magic of any text is that it keeps on generating meaning as long as it is read. Most of it of course is read into it (the dreaded eisegesis which scholarly exegesis must methodologically resist, but exegesis is only a small part of reading). However, even the wildest interpretations always find some basis to build on, and material to build with, within the text itself. As if by the mere act of writing the writer had unwittingly said more, or something else, than s/he actually meant to say (this is the basis of Derrida's famous "deconstruction": the unavoidable and fruitful betrayal of the present logos as intended, controlled and unique meaning, by its commitment to writing and deferred reading).

  From this perspective it is no wonder that even failed prophecies, once committed to writing, outlive themselves in many ways -- through further futuristic predictions, timeless allegories, and so on. And this is never 100 % wrong.

  I find it interesting (if not entirely convincing at the exegetical level) that one of the major French scholarly commentators of Revelation, Pierre Prigent, reads it mostly as a liturgical and christological work which keeps its theological value beyond the prophetic failure. Even though I think it is not exactly the original focus, I can't deny that what he finds in Revelation is there too.
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  proplog2

  Narkissos:

  Good points. There are a variety of ways to look at Revelation. The Bible may be a fiddle you can play any tune on but some are a little too dissonant.
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  proplog2

  Where does the wealth of this worlds religions fit into this picture?

  In 1998 the total Revenues received by Religious Institutions in the USA was:

  - 76 billion dollars-

  This may seem like a lot of money. But compare that to the total of 9 trillion dollars Americans spent on ALL goods and services. (1998)

  That 76 billion dollars is equal to only .8% of all that they spent! Not 8% but 1 tenth of 8% = 0.8%

  The Watchtower goes to great measure to describe the terrible results to the worlds economy if religion is destroyed. Does anyone really believe that if the consuming public didn't spend that paltry 0.8% on religion that the economy would suffer? Anyone who has the slightest knowledge of economics knows that if people are deprived of spending their money on something that they will either save it or spend it on something else. Is it hard to think of the public adding 76 billion dollars to the 1.2 trillion they are already spending on health care? The whole point here is that a 0.8% item in any budget is no big deal.

  Then there is the problem of the mourning ship captains. Most of the money paid out to Religion is local. Religion is primarily a service. Only 10% of the money received by Churches was spent on building and repairs to buildings. 7 billion dollars worth of building materials isn't going to excite the ship captains of the world even if ALL of it were imported.

  It is extremely naive to think that Babylon the Great is the Catholic Church or some imaginary World Empire of False Religion. Religion constitutes only a tiny piece of the world's economic activity. Some have suggested that if there were no Christmas people wouldn't buy the things they buy at Christmas. Who thinks up that kind of stuff? Others have said that economically distressed Governments are going to strip Religion of her property. Just what Governments need - more property! Are they going to use it for government buildings. Are they going to sell vacant church property? Who's going to buy it?