Babylon is not the Symbolic CIty of False Religion.

by proplog2 73 Replies latest jw friends

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  proplog2

  Leolia:

  I agree with you on this. Whoever wrote Revelation would probably view Rome as Babylon the Great. In your research is there anything about Christians getting out of Rome because they thought She was about to be destroyed? (Rev. 18:2-4) I know persecution at times would have driven them out.

  This is a good point:

  all the trade goods listed in 18:12-13 were exactly the items that came from all over the Roman Empire to be traded in Rome,

  You can't conclude on the basis of the "trade list" that Babylon the Great is religion. Although the Kingdom News 37 seems to try to do that:

  "Whom does the harlot represent? She exerts influence "over the kings of the earth". She dresses in purple, uses incense, and is exceedingly wealthy." Page 3 paragraph 2 KN37

  Apparently they fail to understand that incense was commonly used in wealthy households. Even if some of the items were specifically intended for religious use that doesn't mean that all of the items were for use at religious temples. Spices, olive oil, gold, cattle, sheep, horses? And they pick out "incense" to make some kind of point that its talking about religion.

  It seems JW's are locked into Freddy Franzism and they will never take a step back to see the non-sense.
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  Leolaia

  The "summons to flight" in Revelation 18:4 could be taken either literally or metaphorically. A literal reading would posit the author as warning the Christian community in Rome to flee the city in advance of the coming catastrophe. This is certainly possible, tho there is no evidence that such a warning was heeded.

  A metaphorical reading however would take advantage of the fact that the book was addressed to the churches of Asia Minor, not Rome, and thus would presume that the author is warning them from participating in activities that support Rome, such as the emperor cult (cf. Pliny, Epistle 10.96.5-6, in which Asian Christians were made to deny their faith by giving offerings to a statue of Trajan, cf. Revelation 13:14-15). The cities of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamon, Nicaea, Nicomedia, etc. were the primary centers of the Dea Roma cult, with temples and sacred precincts devoted to her; in fact, Dea Roma was not known in Rome itself until Hadrian established the first temple for her in the city in the 120s or 130s. The warning would have then been to have nothing to do with Dea Roma or other practices that support Rome. Recall, as mentioned above, that the portrayal of "Babylon" as a prostitute sitting on top of seven hills (17:9) is a cariacture of the goddess Roma. In fact, this is exactly how Roma was represented in her temples and on official coinage (cf. the coin minted in Asia Minor in AD 71 depicting her sitting on the seven hills with a parazonium held on her right knee, a symbol of Rome's military might).

  In this light, it is interesting to note that Paul adapts a literal "summons to flight" from Isaiah 52:11-12 in 2 Corinthians 6:17 to signify the moral separateness of the Christian community from the world. The Christians "come out of the world" by having nothing to do with it ("What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever", v. 15). On this reading, John would seem to be similarly adapting Jeremiah 51:45 to admonish Christians to have nothing to do with the institutions of Rome that were in their midst.

  Apparently they fail to understand that incense was commonly used in wealthy households. Even if some of the items were specifically intended for religious use that doesn't mean that all of the items were for use at religious temples. Spices, olive oil, gold, cattle, sheep, horses? And they pick out "incense" to make some kind of point that its talking about religion.

  Good point. When you learn more about the products listed there, the more it all makes sense. Rome imported its grain from Egypt, hence the mention of grain. Rome's military campaigns in Gaul, Germany, Britain, etc. produced large numbers of prisoners of war, hence the reference to slaves. Rome benefitted from trade routes through central Asia and Parthia, hence the reference to silk. The reference to citron wood is the most obvious sign of wealth; Cicero paid 500,000 sesterces for one table and Gallus Asinius paid 1,000,000 for another.
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  Narkissos

  Side question: how long did it take before the book of Revelation (which is by far the most, if not the only anti-Roman text in the NT) reached the Urbs and gained any Christian audience there?

  There were far more Roman-friendly versions of Christianity available to Roman citizens... (cf. Acts, and Romans of course).
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  Leolaia

  Revelation seems to first appear in Asia Minor and the East; I'm thinking of references to it by Papias of Hierapolis (c. 130-140 AD), Justin Martyr (c. 150 AD), and perhaps a very faint trace in Ignatius' letter to the Philadelphians (c. 110 AD). Clement of Rome does not know it which would be understandable if his letter to the Corinthians was written around the same time. The obvious writer that would shed light on the reception of Revelation in Rome would be Hermas of Rome, who similarly was responsible for a revelatory work. The parallels in Vision 2.2.7, 4.1.6, 4.2.1-5, Similtude 3.3, 8.2.2-3 may indicate familiarity with Revelation, but they are pretty generic and indistinct in themselves so I don't think they settle the matter. The references do not become more distinct and widespread in the West until the second half of the second century (e.g. Irenaeus, the Epistle of Vienna and Lyons, Hippolytus of Rome).
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  proplog2

  Amazing:

  You pointed out that:

  Revelation also says that in her no more will be found the bride and bridegroom. People get married in churches.

  This does not automatically suggest religion. Revelation 18: 22 includes the sound of a millstone as something that wouldn't be heard again. The things listed were the typical sounds and scenes you would see in a thriving city.

  Revelation 18:22 is almost a direct quote from Jeremiah 25:10,11 "And I will destroy out of them the sound of exultation and the sound of rejoicing, the voice of the bridegroom and the voice of the bride, the sound of the hand mill and the light of the lamp. And all this LAND (not temples) must become a devasted place, and object of astonishment."

  I remember many speakers at the Kingdom Hall make this mistake. They weren't trying to mislead. It was a convenient misunderstanding and no one would question it because it seemed to fit.
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  Narkissos

  Thank you Leolaia, I lacked the documentation to check immediately...

  One interesting point is that the 2nd-century Christian community in Lyons and nearby Vienna (not to be confused with the capital of Austria) was mostly Greek-speaking, and directly connected to Asia Minor through Polycarp of Smyrna who was the master of Irenaeus. Since in the 1st century Paul writes to the "Romans" in Greek, it is quite likely that the majority of Christians in Rome were non-Romans too -- although there is no evidence there, afaik, for a specific connection with Asia Minor. In any case the first Latin reference to Revelation in Rome is from the 3rd century...
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  Satanus

  It's ironic that revelation made it into the religion whose center was rome.

  S
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  proplog2

  In two weeks we will be discussing the subject "Identifying Babylon the Great". This little article is in the appendix of the "Bible Teach" book.

  This is their explanation of why Babylon the Great can't be a political entity:

  "An empire can be political, commercial, or religious. The woman named Babylon the Great is not a political empire because God's Word states that "the kings of the earth," or the political elements of this world, "committed fornication" with her. Her fornication refers to the alliances she has made with the rulers of this earth and explains why she is called "the great harlot." -Revelation 17:1, 2; James 4:4."

  But how can they reach that conclusion? Especially when you consider Isaiah 23:17

  And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre (a political entity), and she must return to her hire and commit prostitution with all the kingdoms of the earth upon the surface of the ground."

  Is this self-explanatory? Is the Watchtower going to make the claim that Tyre is NOT a political entity? How can Tyre be a political entity and simultaneously commit fornication with all the kingdoms of the earth BUT Babylon the Great cannot?

  Back to the "Bible Teach" book:

  Babylon the Great cannot be a commercial empire because the "merchants of the earth," representing the commercial elements, will be mourning her at the time of her destruction.

  Here they are making the claim that Babylon the Great can't be a commerical empire. Well, a political entity certainly can be a commercial empire. Babylon the Great is described as being a commercial empire at Revelation 18:23 OK Back to "Bible Teach"

  because your traveling merchants were the top-ranking men of the earth.

  Again this is the same language used to describe Tyre at Isaiah 23:8

  Who is it that has given this counsel against Tyre, the bestower of crowns, whose merchants were princes, whose tradesmen were the honorable ones of the earth?

  OK Back to "Bible Teach" Was Ninevah a political enitty or was it a religion?

  The religious identity of Babylon the Great is further confirmed by the statement that she misleads all the nations by means of her "spiritistic practice." (Revelation 18:23)

  Was Ninevah a political entity or was it a religion? We know it was the capital of the Assyrian World Empire. So then explain how it is possible to be described the way it is at Nahum 3:4

  Owing to the abundance of the acts of prostitution of the prostitute, attractive with charm, a mistress of sorceries, she who is ensnaring nations by her acts of prostitution and families by her sorceries

  Here is an example of a political entity that in addition to being referred to as a prostitute is also a sorcerer or practicer of spiritism. Does that mean that Ninevah could not possibly be a political kingdom and must therefore be a religious entity? NO. It appears a political kingdom CAN be referred to as carrying on spiritistic practices. So how can the Watchtower say that the great harlot CANNOT be a political enitty and that she must be a worldwide religious entity because she carries on spiritistic practices.

  I am getting tired of the special formatting. The "Bible Teach" book finally says "

  "This empire is also described as being actively opposed to true religion, persecuting "prophets" and "holy ones." (Revelation 18:24) "

  Read Revelation 18:24 for yourself. "Yes in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth". This hyperbole is almost the same as that used to describe the blood-guilt of the political enity - Babylon .

  Jeremiah 51:49 "Not only was Babylon the cause for the slain ones of Israel to fall but also at Babylon the slain ones of ALL the earth have fallen" Ancient Babylon was a political enitty.

  Is anyone still going to argue that Babylon the Great is some World Empire of False Religion? Millions of tracts distributed simultaneously throughout the world doesn't make the message true.
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  proplog2

  The current tract work is a showcase for another prediction that will come to disappointment.

  I have noticed an exceptional zeal for distributing this tract. My congregation used up their supply already.

  What really irritates me about the Babylon the Great interpretation is that it is one of those things they use to control members lives.

  You can't go to weddings in Churches.

  You can't be in a wedding that takes place in a Church or is conducted by one of the clergy.

  You can't have a membership in a YMCA even if they have the best pool and exercise facility in your area.

  If you are a tradesman or even a janitor you can't provide any ongoing service to a church or a church run school or day care center.

  You can't send you children to a church run school even if it is safer and better than a government run school.

  It seems they do make an exception if you attend a Church owned University.

  You can't give your old clothes to a resale store that is associated with a religion.

  It used to be that you couldn't take a job in a hospital that is affiliated with a religious order. I don't know if that's still the case.

  I know some JW's who won't even pull into a church parking lot to turn around and go in another direction.
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  Leolaia

  If I do get a return visit from the tract placement (unlikely), this is the very point I would likely bring up.