I reckon Satan won the argument......what do you think ? (page 3)

hambeak

Good thread but I am not ready to cast my vote on this one yet. Remember gods angel told lot if you can find just a few riteous people he wouldn't destroy Sodom and Gomorah.

Honesty

The WTBTS has always said that their god is victorious.

"But isn't there a part about humankind not being able to rule themselves that was part of the deal? Like YHWH giving them time to try to prove they could rule themselves but we haven't because we still have wars and disease etc.?"

Yeah this is what the WTS thinks, but if this is the case god is cheating anyway: He made us imperfect so we die and get sick, he set us back in science over 1000 years with a flood, he is at the heart of most wars since he confused the languages and most of the other wars are caused because of people trying to decypher the bible that he had written in a super confusing way... all of this was done because he was afraid of losing the bet. I think the bible even said something to this effect in the tower of babel story.

If it was a real test he would just leave us the heck alone and see how well PERFECT people can rule themselves. We would all be speaking the same laungage and there would be no old people or sick people.

I think I said this before somewhere, but it's worth repeating. Godly sabotage is the worlds problem, not Satan.

LtCmd.Lore

daystar

Daystar, OK, I agree with that statement. But isn't that what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach about God? And doesn't the Bible give God human characteristics (i.e. God is a jealous God; God is love)? Well I think that would be one of the main points in what is wrong with the teachings in the first place. So what is the "point" that God is trying to prove (and by "God" I mean the Witness God) by not intervening for 6000 years or whatever it is... I'm rusty on my timing....?

Hmm... I think I rather came across as debating you and I didn't mean to. Sorry about that. :/

Yeah, that's what the JWs teach and that is much of what I take from the Bible. And I believe them both to be quite patently wrong (from my perspective) on the nature of their own God based upon the sort of being he is, ultimately, supposed to be. I mean, for a being that has no beginning or end, etc., he sure is a petty bastard the way the JWs and the Bible make him out to be.

Hell, the way I see it, Jesus comes across as a much, much more enlightened fellow than his Father from the OT. And some people believe them to be the same person. I don't really get that unless he's got Dissociative Identity Disorder. (I know, there are Christian rationalities for this. I just don't buy them.)

I think the point is, my point anyway... that it's a story, just a story, a morality play, if you will. It's not to be taken literally. There is no real being as Satan, or God, as presented in the Bible. There was no "argument" by these two beings as to our right to sovereignty. It's a fairy tale. And unfortunately, it's used all to often to subjugate the masses.

spiritualjourney

quote: "Yeah, a better test would be "You have absolutely no hope of life after death, no hope for a better life other than the one you make for yourself. But you must worship me and obey me without question anyway, even though you get absolutely nothing out of it."

How many would follow that god?"

Some people really do worship Jehovah God without expecting any particular outcome; i.e. example paradise

Narkissos

Assuming for the sake of discussion that the (unscriptural) WT presentation of the issue is correct, those who choose Satan's side deliberately, knowing that they will eventually lose everything because of their choice, are the truly disinterested ones... making Jehovah's point against him.

LtCmd.Lore

Interesting that Satan raised two arguments at once, and neither of them are being addressed:

1: Humans are better off without god.

2: Humans only serve god for what they can get out of it.

But he made us imperfect. Thus making everything that happens afterward irrelevent because our problems are caused by god, not mans inability to rule.

And offers everlasting life as a reward. Therefore everyone who follows god is doing it for what they can get out of it, proving Satan right, or at least not proving anything.

The best way to address both issues, is for god to let a race of perfect humans rule themselves and, everyone who is unhappy there can join gods people, and the only thing they would have to gain out of it would be a different ruler. That would answer the challenges.

(I think those where the only two challenges right?)

LtCmd.Lore

jayhawk1

Hambeak, actually God had that conversation with Abraham and God was to look for as few as 10 righteous men in Sodom. Lot was never in on this conversation and he never went and looked for anybody to worship the True God with him. But it is typical of Watchtower to turn this story around and let JWs think Lot was a preacher in Sodom and thereby JWs must all be preachers (booksellers) too.

Interesting comments on this thread. As they say in sports, "Scoreboard!" Satan won.

Good Girl or Bad Girl?

Daystar, OK, I agree with that statement. But isn't that what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach about God? And doesn't the Bible give God human characteristics (i.e. God is a jealous God; God is love)? Well I think that would be one of the main points in what is wrong with the teachings in the first place. So what is the "point" that God is trying to prove (and by "God" I mean the Witness God) by not intervening for 6000 years or whatever it is... I'm rusty on my timing....?
Hmm... I think I rather came across as debating you and I didn't mean to. Sorry about that. :/
Yeah, that's what the JWs teach and that is much of what I take from the Bible. And I believe them both to be quite patently wrong (from my perspective) on the nature of their own God based upon the sort of being he is, ultimately, supposed to be. I mean, for a being that has no beginning or end, etc., he sure is a petty bastard the way the JWs and the Bible make him out to be.
Hell, the way I see it, Jesus comes across as a much, much more enlightened fellow than his Father from the OT. And some people believe them to be the same person. I don't really get that unless he's got Dissociative Identity Disorder. (I know, there are Christian rationalities for this. I just don't buy them.)
I think the point is, my point anyway... that it's a story, just a story, a morality play, if you will. It's not to be taken literally. There is no real being as Satan, or God, as presented in the Bible. There was no "argument" by these two beings as to our right to sovereignty. It's a fairy tale. And unfortunately, it's used all to often to subjugate the masses.

It's all good, Daystar. :-) No worries. I appreciate your viewpoints, and always have.

Spectre

I like how for god to win this one, everybody must decipher his poorly written book in the exact way in which he means for it to be figured out. Now I see that this issue has already been brought up.

I reckon Satan won the argument......what do you think ?

Share this