--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  hillary_step

  Gordon,

  Come now, you seemed to have missed the point of my post also. The point is contained in the question which you omitted to answer. I will quote my post again.

  Proof exists of the existence of George Washington in documentation, including numerous signed documents, eyewitness accounts, even a body should you wish to dig it up!

  What proof can you give that *anyone* has survived 'beyond this life ' as you put it?

  As to Jesus, well his existence historically is tenuous, and relies on insubstansive evidence, though my own feeling is that the Biblical Christ did exist in some form or the other.

  Of course this does not prove that he walked on water, nor raised the dead. If you wish to believe this, you are of course entirely free to do so and I would defend your freedom to believe in the unprovable. Yet likewise, you should not harrangue those who need verifiable proof in order to believe in your God.

  Best regards - HS
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  LOL, looks like business as usual here on jwd.

  tetra
• 

  Scully

  LOL, looks like business as usual here on jwd.

  tetra

  kid-A and I were just wondering when you would pop in.
• 

  daniel-p

  LOL, looks like business as usual here on jwd.

  tetra

  Whoa, you posted a lot around the time I came in freshly disillusioned... nice to see you're still around.
• 

  Borgia

  Intruiging analogy, Gordon-P. Hope and eggs. What exaclty is your hope and what were the persuasive argumements that convinced you?

  I do accept, and even admire, the fact that you have found hope. Maybe you reflect on your life previous to finding it as: hope-less. I can buy that. Letting go of hope is like exstinguishing light. Gaining hope is like the sun - rise and a fresh breeze, no?

  What exaclty is hope? I go to the bank, agree on a mortgage, contract a builder and voila, I have a hope to live in a new house in a while. You do agree that the items that support that hope are all rooted in.....contracts and agreements entrusted to...paper with a signature. If one of the contracted does not live up to the agreed service level, I have the enforcement (law) to get my rightfull share. ( I do agree that the real meaning of "rightfull share" may differ from country to country)and sometimes....I am fooled and robbed of a couple of 100K because the builder may go broke.

  People who live in a torn and devastated country may hope to find refuge in another country. I think we all agree that this hope may be shacky given the situation for example in Dafour. The institution that is entrusted with enforcing that hope...is a paper tiger.....

  Even applying for asylum in other coutries is not a pleasure in itself. It oftentimes is more than a desparate try than a founded hope for better. They tell each other stories about the riches in for example Europe, of how much money can be earned and how they will be able to support their family at home. And basically, compared to their situation...anything is better. People cross the ocean in tiny open boats in search for a better life. They paid dearly for trying to live up to that hope. Many loosing their health or life along the way. Just to find themselves caught in order to be sent back from where they came from.

  If I plough the soil, spread some BS, sew the seeds, and water the plants, I may have hope to harvest. Again, apart from external disturbances like political riot, war, drought, flooding, tsunamies, etc, I may have a reasonable hope to harvest. On what is my hope based? Do you see the roots? Hope is based on fysicle, noticable and measurable qualities.

  So, it is possible to aquire a hope totally different from yours. That aquired hope is rooted firmly in current circumstances, existing cycles and even makes allowance for disaster.

  The sole fact that a child may hope to find an egg in the garden is not proof of the existence of the easter bunny. Nor does the actual finding of the egg proof the existence of the easter bunny. It proofs what it proofs...an egg is an egg. And...dependant on the type of egg, what kind of chicken it was who laid it. A child may not regard that as such, but reality is.....an egg is an egg is an egg.

  Cheers

  Borgia
• 

  Scully

  We can't have a rational discussion with you getting all emotional like that!

  Sorry! ... Intelligent, passionate, articulate women are a big weakness for me!

  There are plenty more of us around here. Really.

  I guess your loving "god" will make sure that I have an eternity in hell to make up for it, won't he/she/it?

  I think you have THIS God confused with one of the sadistic ones that mankind created! You'll need a priest for that!

  What was it you chastised me for about the Bible back at the beginning of the thread? Oh yeah:

  C'mon.....You know better than that!!!!!!!

  If you're gonna site Job for a point... you gotta to take it all as valid..... what are you some kinda' JW????

  Cherry picking the beliefs you like and spitting out the bits you don't, eh? If you're going to believe in a kinder, gentler, New Testament version of "god", you have to accept that deity in its entirety. Jesus was the guy who brought up Gehenna and burning in the lake of fire... do you have a problem with that? To me, it's mythology... but as a "believer", well, why would you reject that part of the one you claim to worship / serve / believe in? Doesn't it fit in with your nifty little Easter egg analogy?

  You quoted Maslow!!!!! ........... Ummm..... So what are you wearing right now????

  Maslow was one of the World greatest "Believers"!.... He was just too self-absorbed during his "Needs" phase to realize it...

  Would you mind posting a reference regarding Malsow being a "believer"? It's well established that he had a Jewish heritage - no mention of his being a real follower of that belief system though - and he is regarded as one of the founding fathers of modern Humanism. I'd like to see your evidence. (Again with the evidence! )

  Believe it or not, Deitist spirituality does not necessarily contradict the power of spiritual internalization or the enlightenment of self.... again, you'll need a priest for that!

  For me, deism does contradict self-actualization / enlightenment / spiritual internalization. The moment you have someone or something waiting to kick your butt if (a) you do something wrong, or (b) if you don't do what they want you to do, or (c) if you aren't good according to their standards of good; and promising a reward (aka "bribery") (d) when you avoid doing harm, or (e) actively do what is right, then you have a hinderance to doing the right and ethical thing of your own accord. It sets up a parent-child relationship between the deity and the individual, which is OK, I guess, if you want to have that kind of relationship with another entity.

  I'm an adult though, and I'm not about to slough off accountability for my actions on something external to myself, by claiming that I did it because "god" wanted me to do it or not do it. Doing the right and ethical thing, for the atheist, is a reward in and of itself, simply because it is the right and ethical thing to do. I can go to bed at night and rest assured that I have not caused harm to anyone and that I'm a good person, and I don't need any "god" to bless me for it or reward me for it at all.
• 

  Satanus

  Actually, the point was "who is wiser?" Those that believe in only things that they have seen or those that have an open-mind to think that the universe is not limited to human sensory perceptions....

  Atheists want preceptable proof. You seem to think that people who believe things without proof are wiser than those who want proof. Who would do better in business? If you had a customer who always did nothing but promise to pay, how wise would you be to spend your whole life doing business w him and never make anything from him?

  The first guy that theorized the existence of ultra-violet radiation was a quack too!

  At least he was proven right. Your god refuses to prove his existence.

  If god had personally done some undeniable, major life sustaining act in each individuals' life, it would have some merit

  Are you enjoying that air that you're breathing?

  Ah, again, what proof is there that your god made the air? Science has explained where the gases that make up the air were made, and are continuously being made to this very day. It is mostly made in stars. The way stars are made has also been explained by science. No proof of your god there. Try something else.

  Btw, while i deny the existence of your god, i do not deny that a spirit dimension exists. That is because of things that i have percieved. But, i don't see how that makes me wiser than those who don't believe in the spirit world.

  S
• 

  Asheron

  Asheron.... I seriously doubt that the guy from Three's Company discovered ultra-violet light... you might want to check you sources.

  I did and not only did the guy from Three's Company discover UV he got together with the guy from Taxi and opened tanning salons)

  The point being, that prior to the scientific "Proof" of Ultra-violet light, the only basis for his hypothesis was found in the visible effects of this invisible phenomena. He chose to search for more proof and a greater understanding of something that was (as of yet) not proven!

  It is not difficult for a person today to prove the existence os UV light, just as it would not be difficult for a being who had experienced life after death to prove their beliefs.... since that has not happened to any of us, we find ourselves in the same time frame as Ritter, proir to the establishment of proof. the only basis for our hypothesis is (again) in the visible effects of an invisible phenomena................. For most of us, the jury is still out!

  Then using that logic the jury is still out on the following unprovables:

  1. The Tooth Fairy

  2. Unicorns

  3. Ogres

  4. Trolls

  5. An Honest Politician

  and....wait for it....here it comes....

  6. The Easter Bunny

  Asheron
• 

  Asheron

  I present the following Hypothesis:

  There is a 9000 pound fire breathing invisible pan-dimensionable Dragon living in my garage. I cant give you any tangable proof so as of right now it is still in the unproven stage.

  But Im sure one day I will be proved correct.

  Asheron
• 

  gordon d

  Sorry guys.... had to step away from the computer and handle some business responsibilties....

  Where were we?????

  Borgia... thanks for the kind words.... I needed that!

  I enjoyed your examples, they made a valid point They did have one thing in common, Tangible result based upon our understanding of cause and effect principals even including variables (beyond our control) that were still based upon "conventional" wisdom. Perhaps cultural analogies or parables further support the base of our understanding. But why is it necessary to think that something as inheirantly supernatural as a communion with a seperate entity has to fit into human logic. Isn't the history of man full of examples where seemingly unexplainable phenomena was given to outrageous theory or (in the epitome of human vanity) a personification.... Just look at the humanoid God's created to explain things like the sun and moon.

  We are obviously far more technologically advanced than those people, yet we still base much of our philosophical viewpoints on theories that originated at the same time and level of human development..... Platonism itself, predates Roman mythology. There was a time that human flights of fancy were labeled as heracy if they differed from the outlandish ghost stories developed (by political and social leaders) in the name of Godly worship. Some of these flights of fancy were, human flight, microscopic organisms, and relationships between humans and spiritual creatures. Are we really so advanced today, that we have no need for objectivity before claiming that anything that does not fit into "OUR" understanding or sophisticated logic is some fabrication of an overactive imagination.

  It might be justifyable if humans had the intellect to create something as simple as a squirrel.... what the heck, something as simple as an ant..OK...forget animals, how about a flower. Until that day comes, we might want to admit that we don't know everything. And IF these items were created by something with a conscience, maybe we would be wise to admit that such a being would not necessarily be confined to the laws that govern our understanding, on this one little planet, in the middle of nowhere.