--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

by gordon d 145 Replies latest jw friends

tetrapod.sapien

hey scully and daniel-p! i see you guys have been kickin' some ass and taking names. nice posts. you've come a long way too daniel. good on you.
cheers,
tetra
ps: gordon:
Until that day comes, we might want to admit that we don't know everything.
and indeed, perhaps until it does come, it would be wise of you not to presume with your comments that we were created. you see? the same logic applies to you. if you want to get into probability at this point, i should warn you that technically, according to parsimony, it's a losing debate for people who say we, or the universe, was designed.
gordon d

Hi Scully,
What was it you chastised me for about the Bible back at the beginning of the thread? Oh yeah:
Cherry picking the beliefs you like and spitting out the bits you don't, eh? If you're going to believe in a kinder, gentler, New Testament version of "god", you have to accept that deity in its entirety. Jesus was the guy who brought up Gehenna and burning in the lake of fire... do you have a problem with that? To me, it's mythology... but as a "believer", well, why would you reject that part of the one you claim to worship / serve / believe in? Doesn't it fit in with your nifty little Easter egg analogy?
Wait a second! I didn't offer ANY scriptures in support for my viewpoint that were Pro-God....If you're gonna take the Bible as a source for defending your atheistic position, then YOU have opened up Pandora's box... If you're gonna make assumption that I base my beleifs on the Bible, Please remember that even 2 Timothy 3:16 could NOT have been in support for the validity any of the Greek scriptures as they we're not canonized until 2 centuries later by a group of people with less than ideal credentials.... we don't even need to go into Ptolemic political practices and the rabbinical compilation of the Septuagint.
Would you mind posting a reference regarding Malsow being a "believer"? It's well established that he had a Jewish heritage - no mention of his being a real follower of that belief system though - and he is regarded as one of the founding fathers of modern Humanism. I'd like to see your evidence. (Again with the evidence! )
That was supposed to be a sarcastic observation of the latent similarities between psychological principles and (i'm making up words here) "internalized-induction-deitization"... more on that later....
For me, deism does contradict self-actualization / enlightenment / spiritual internalization.
Would you feel this way if the deity, somehow, became.... YOU? ............. NO! I'm NOT talking about ones transformation into a God-like creature.. I'm making a referrence to the theory of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of a person.
Uh-Oh!... Here we Go!!!!
Hey Asheron,..................are there any footprints or charred boards?
Hey Satanus.... I think that science's explanantion of the origin of all matter is more fanciful than divine intent... that's just me. I'll be happy to share my reasons if you're interested.
Satanus

I think that science's explanantion of the origin of all matter is more fanciful than divine intent... that's just me. I'll be happy to share my reasons if you're interested.
It's your thread. Go for it.
S
gordon d

Hi Tetra....
As exhausting and friutless as it may be, I'd love to participate in this discussion further. Perhaps it would merit a new thread.
Let me prepare myself, Will your position be emperical or philosophical?... original (first-hand) or plagiarized?
The statements supporting my (personal) views on creation were retaliatory... The original point was nothing more than promoting the open-mindedness among those who say, "There cannot be a God, because I have not seen one." and those that ask, "Could there really be a God."
gordon d

Hi Satanus... A little off topic but what the hell...
Here's an abbreviated perspective of just one scientific fact.
Proponents of the Big Bang theory claim that it took place 10-20 billion years ago... as of yet, no center point has been theorized. The galaxy Abell 1835 IR 1916 is calculated at being over 13,000,000,000 light years from earth and nearly 22,000,000,000 light years from the farthest know galaxy 172 degrees by 168 degree opposingly oriented. Even if matter (as we consider stars to be made up of) could travel at the speed of light (their visible presence precludes that) it contradicts the very formation of these items being cast with any velocity necessary for being visible in their current positions... let alone that they are not still visible as hurling bits of matter but as homogenous, symetrical forms, in mature life cycles.
Scully

Wait a second! I didn't offer ANY scriptures in support for my viewpoint that were Pro-God....If you're gonna take the Bible as a source for defending your atheistic position, then YOU have opened up Pandora's box... If you're gonna make assumption that I base my beleifs on the Bible, Please remember that even 2 Timothy 3:16 could NOT have been in support for the validity any of the Greek scriptures as they we're not canonized until 2 centuries later by a group of people with less than ideal credentials.... we don't even need to go into Ptolemic political practices and the rabbinical compilation of the Septuagint.
So on what, exactly do you base your "Pro-God" belief system? You haven't exactly explained your side of the argument during the course of this thread, even though you've required atheists to explain the basis for their belief system. Care to try? If it isn't anything to do with the "god" of the bible / New Testament, how do you regard yourself as a Christian? (I've been reviewing your posting history... )
That was supposed to be a sarcastic observation of the latent similarities between psychological principles and (i'm making up words here) "internalized-induction-deitization"... more on that later....
Ohhhhhhhh that was sarcasm.... I almost missed it because it was all mixed in with the emotional outburst.
Would you feel this way if the deity, somehow, became.... YOU? ............. NO! I'm NOT talking about ones transformation into a God-like creature.. I'm making a referrence to the theory of the Holy Spirit dwelling inside of a person.
I imagine if that ever happened to me, I'd leave a message here that folks could visit me on the psychiatric ward. You know the saying... When you talk to god, it's called prayer... when god talks to you, it's called schizophrenia.
tetrapod.sapien

"There cannot be a God, because I have not seen one."
actually, that's not quite what atheists are saying, generally. it would be better to phrase it: "there probably isn't a God(s) because there is no evidence so far for one." there is a key difference between the two. i can explain if you like.
and those that ask, "Could there really be a God."
that wasn't a question. but even as such, the tone that this exact question takes is key to understanding what camp the questioner is from. an atheist could ask this question just as easily as a theist could.
peace,
tetra
Satanus

Interesting.
no center point has been theorized.
That is ok, imo. They have much to learn, still, as they know. It could be that the universe did not explode in all directuions from a (round) point. It may have been a directional event, giving it a funnel shape as it advanced. It may also have been a squashed funnel shape, or an almost flat funnel shape, and so, possibly originally, instead of a point, perhaps a line, or a string, as in string theory. If this was the case, then there would not be a center point; perhaps a center line of some kind.
it contradicts the very formation of these items being cast with any velocity necessary for being visible in their current positions
I'm not a numbers guy, so i will describe what i think you are saying to make sure i understand. Since the time it would take for two named galaxies to travel as far away from each other as they are (as we observe them) is greater than the proposed length of existence of the universe, therefore there is a problem.
I did read once, that in some situations, ftl travel takes place between to objects relative to each other. Nevertheless, it is an interesting point that you present.
S
parakeet

gordon: "I said "Hopelessness" I'm sticking to that statement until someone will offer their "Hope" (for existence beyond this life)"

I'm a little late to this party; is there any popcorn left?
gordon d

Hi Scully,
So on what, exactly do you base your "Pro-God" belief system? You haven't exactly explained your side of the argument during the course of this thread, even though you've required atheists to explain the basis for their belief system. Care to try? If it isn't anything to do with the "god" of the bible / New Testament, how do you regard yourself as a Christian? (I've been reviewing your posting history... )
It's not easy for me to communicate here, in writing... but if you really want to know, I'll give it a try... that's only fair.
I have some reservations about the Bible as we know it today. A history of it's origin and it's preservation cause more confusion than confirmation. I also do not believe that anything that we might generally consider as religion is a fundamental part of the intimate relationship that we can have with another being. Just as going through the ceremony of marriage does not automatically make you any "closer" to your spouse. However, I do believe that humans posses the abilty to "bond" with others on a level that science cannot explain. I feel that religions have been guilty of portraying an impression of God that is far removed from his true nature. I also believe that God has allowed this (and human suffering) for a reason and that he will not allow the current situation to last forever. But that is another topic, entirely.
I do believe in the biblical and historical accounts of Jesus.... also, that he was born into human form and ultimately acted as a sacrifice for the foundation of a new covenant between God and mankind. As ridiculous and barbaric as this originally sounded to me, the more searching that I did, the more "sense" that it made..... not to Western or even Eastern thinking but in equilibrium, at a higher level. I do believe that Christ is an entirely seperate entity than the one that "sent" him and has his own will and own thoughts. These views I can only support as being attained through spiritual enlightenment.... even an ability to discern man-made thoughts from God-inspired ones. I realize that this sounds like a form a mental illness but it does not manifest any of the traits of such a malidy (apart from the possibility of a transfixed delusionalism that has no accompanying psychoses... practically an unheard of condition) I do not believe that it is the place of anyone who has gained enlightenment to arbitrarily share knowledge with someone that is not given their own knowledge from spiritual powers. For example, translating of an understanding of a "true" Biblical parable to someone who has no real desire for the knowledge or no love for the will of the one who created it.
I am not saying that I've been given mystical powers? I am saying that an unexplainable change occured during my search for God. This change resulted to an immediate opening of my eyes to spiritual matters that had escaped me (no matter how much I had meditated on them in the past). Some people may refer to this as being born again, seeing the light, or becoming one with God. It's impossible to explain, there simply are no words for it. I would have NEVER believed it as something from God, at any point in my life... until it happened. The people that say one becomes a "new creature" are right..... just ask those that knew me before and after. It is not the same as the transformation of an achoholic in recovery, or a psych patient experiencing a breakthrough.... it is a complete changing of a persons very being. I fully realize that no one who has yet to experience this for themselves would ever understand it... but at the moment that it happens, you completely understand, and you have a peace that overwhelms you.

--- A Question for ALL Atheistic ex-Dubs----

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