Fjtoth said:
I'm still waiting. You claim I haven't been dealing with your questions, and I'm asking you to give me some examples. Be specific. No guesswork. Tell me exactly which one of your questions I've ignored or overlooked.
Sorry to keep you "waiting." Wow, you are so patient and loving and kind, it blows me away. I thought patience was a Christian virtue? Perhaps I'm "wrong" on that too, just like I'm "wrong" on the Trinity?
You want examples, I will give you A LOT of examples right here, right now:
Here is one, from my post on January 6th:
How can Jesus be an EXACT COPY of The Father but still be a lesser creature, considering that Psalm 89 and several other Scriptures teach that NO CREATURE is anything like God at all, not even the highest angelic creatures in heaven?
As far as I can tell, you did not address Psalm 89 compared to Hebrews 1:3. I'm still waiting to hear your answer to that.
Here's another from that same post:
How can The Son be "stamped with God's Nature," and yet have a lesser, created nature? If someone were to say that a human son of a human father was "stamped with his father's nature," no one would think that the son had a lesser nature, but instead, they would think he had the exact same nature as his father. No one would suspect that his son was actually a lesser creature such as an ape.
I have yet to hear from you on that, as well.
Here is a question I posted on January 2nd:
How can the Son be "the exact representation" of God's Very Being (Heb. 1:3), as you yourself agree with, while the Bible also says at Psalm 89 (among other places) that not even the very greatest and highest of angelic creatures is anything like God?
Still waiting.....
I also posted this on January 2nd:
John 1:3 says that The Logos existed BEFORE any thing was ever made, because every single thing was made through the Logos. The angels were created through the Logos, therefore, the Logos had to exist BEFORE the angels. (Colossians 1:16) That's just simple logic, unless you can explain how God created all things through the Logos before the Logos existed.
I have never yet seen your explanation of John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16.
I also posted this on January 2nd:
Have you ever read John 1:3? Or Colossians 1:16-17?
John 1:3 (ESV): All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Colossians 1:16-17 (ESV): For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Also on January 2nd, I posted this:
A human father and a human son are EQUALLY HUMAN. Just because a human father has authority over his human son, and his son subjects himself to his human father, does not make the human son any less of a human being than his father is. A human father can be "greater" than his son in position, power, and authority, but cannot be "better" in nature -- they are both equally human beings.A human father is not MORE human than his son is.It is the same way with God. God The Father has a greater position within the Trinity and greater authority, but is NOT better in nature than His Son.
Have you replied to that yet? I've never seen it.
Also on January 2nd, I posted this:
The Jews also (at least the Pharisees and Sadduccees), by the 1st Century, had completely distorted the Word of God, as Jesus plainly told them:
Matthew 15:6-9 (ESV): he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"
The majority of Jews also REJECTED Jesus as The Messiah. So, obviously, the majority of Jews did not have a very good idea of WHO the Messiah was going to be. They also rejected the idea that the Messiah would suffer and die for their sins.
John 5:39-40 (ESV): You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
Also, the Jewish leaders completely twisted around the Sabbath Laws, and many other laws.
I base my beliefs on the BIBLE, NOT on how the Jews understood the Bible, NOT on the "traditions" of the Jews.
Jesus said not to rely on the ancient "traditions" of the Jews about how the Bible should be understood:
Matthew 15:2-3 (ESV): "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matthew 5:43-44 (ESV): "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
Mark 7:13 (ESV): thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."
Do you think it is wise to rely so much on what the Jews (who rejected the Messiah) believed about the Messiah?
I've never seen your reply to that either.
Also on January 2nd, I posted this:
fjtoth said: This is further shown in Exodus 33:11: “The Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." God has one face and Moses had one face. And if God truly treated Moses as a friend, Moses would have known God as a Trinity, but he did not.
Who says that Moses did not know God as a Trinity? One Person of God (The Son, who was THE Angel of the Lord, who had YHWH's Name within Him) chose to appear to Moses and speak directly to him face-to-face. No human has ever seen The Father, including Moses.
The Bible makes it clear that Moses certainly knew about at least TWO Persons of the Trinity -- The Father and The Son:
1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (ESV): I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Exodus 14:19-20 (ESV): Then the angel of God who was going before the host of Israel moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them, coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. And there was the cloud and the darkness. And it lit up the night without one coming near the other all night.
Exodus 23:20-21 (ESV): "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.
Hebrews 11:26-27 (ESV): He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
Exodus 3:2, 6, 14 (ESV): And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. [...] And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. [...] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Moses also knew about the Third Person of the Trinity, The Holy Spirit:
Exodus 31:1-3 (ESV): The LORD said to Moses, "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship,
Numbers 11:29 (ESV): But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"
In fact, look at this Scripture in Isaiah about the time of Moses, referring to the Holy TRINITY in the Old Testament!:
Isaiah 63:9-11 (ESV): In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,
That Scripture refers to:
1:) God The Father.
2:) The Angel of God's Presence, who is the Savior and Redeemer of God's people.
3:) The Holy Spirit, who can be grieved and hurt.
Three Persons of God, mentioned in the same paragraph in the Old Testament!
Have you replied to that yet?
Here is another statement I made on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: The idea that God bows down to or worships anyone is blasphemous for the simple reason that God is Almighty. It denigrates him to having equals. He has no equals, and he bows to no other person.
True, God has no equals. But, think for a moment. What if, when the Bible says God has no equals, it is referring to the entire Trinity of God? Could it be that the Bible is actually saying that THE TRINITY has no equals? Have you ever thought about it that way?
The Bible says (in Psalm 89) that no angel or created being in heaven is ANYTHING like God at all. Nothing compares to YHWH. Then, Hebrews 1:3 declares that Jesus is EXACTLY LIKE God's Very Being! How can those two statements be harmonized without believing that Jesus is God?
I also said this on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: Jesus told a Samaritan woman “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) Why do Trinitarians ignore this statement of Jesus? He said plainly that the Jews knew what they worshipped, and yet they did not worship a Trinity!
Yet, Jesus also showed that the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders had a distorted, perverted view of God's love and justice and mercy and grace. So, were the Jews worshiping God correctly at the time of the Pharisees and Sadduccees? The Sadduccees taught that God was not even going to resurrect anyone! The Pharisees taught that God forbade people from helping others or saving others on the Sabbath Day. They also taught that we should "hate our enemies." Is that a correct view of the God that Jesus described?
fjtoth said: Until today, the Jews are opposed to the idea of the Trinity, and they view it as pagan superstition.
Also until today, the Jews are opposed to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, and they view Him as an imposter and a blasphemer. Do you see why we cannot rely on what the Jews believe? We must go by what the BIBLE SAYS, not merely what humans say.
I also said this on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: Jesus told the Samaritan woman that “the Father” is looking for true worshipers. (John 4:23) He said, “for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers.” He did not say, “for such people the Father and the Holy Spirit and I seek to be our worshipers.”
But, look at this other Scripture in John, where Jesus said that The Father is seeking for people to give GLORY to Jesus:
John 8:50 (ESV): Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.
Jesus does not seek His own worship and glory, but The Father DOES seek for people to glorify and worship The Son.
Here is yet another statement I posted on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: Jesus said, "Go, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" (Matt. 4:10) Here Jesus said God is to be worshiped and served “only.” He did not direct attention to himself. The word used here for “served” is latreuo, a word used in the NT with reference to the Father and never with reference to Jesus. If Jesus is the Almighty God who is to be given latreuo service, it seems reasonable that he would have said “You shall worship me your Lord God, and serve me only.” But Jesus said nothing of the kind.
Jesus quoted only Holy Scripture when arguing with the Devil. That is why Jesus did not say "worship ME." Instead He quoted the Scripture exactly as it is written. This does not, in any way, prove that Jesus was not the Lord God mentioned in the Scripture He quoted. In fact, Jesus spoke of Himself in the 3rd person very frequently in the Gospels, especially when referring to Himself as The Son of Man.
Jesus directs attention to His Father, and His Father directs attention to Jesus.
Also, it is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for "Serve" used in the Deuteronomy Scripture that Jesus quoted in Matt. 4:10, IS USED for the Messiah in the Old Testament in these verses:
Psalm 72:11 (ESV): May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!
Also, a different Hebrew word for "Serve" (Pelach) was used for the Messiah in Daniel 7:14, which, aside from this reference to the Messiah, is used for worshiping God or worshiping a false god in the Hebrew Scriptures:
Daniel 7:14 (LITV): And dominion was given to Him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Again, here is something else I posted on January 2nd:
The husband and wife illustration is similar to the Trinity, in the fact that a husband can be the "head" of his wife and be "greater" than his wife, yet the husband is NOT better in nature than the wife. They are still both equally human beings.
The reason I used the husband and wife illustration is because of this Scripture which the Watchtower Society tries to use against the Trinity:
1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV): But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
Since that verse is not saying that a wife is inferior or lesser in nature than her head, then, it is also not saying that Christ is inferior or lesser in nature than His Head, God The Father. This verse is referring to POSITION, NOT NATURE.
Also, just because something is "mysterious" or hard-to-comprehend, does NOT mean that it is unbiblical. The belief that God never had a beginning is also hard-to-comprehend, and is "mysterious," yet the Bible says it's true.
Yet another statement I posted on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: And why should such theoretical terminology be of any value to a Christian? Can you imagine Jesus or the apostles using such terms? The Bible as I read it is very straightforward and easy to understand. Trinitarians have chosen to spice it up with mysticism and what to my mind resembles witchcraft. Teachers who use terms that would be totally unfamiliar to the apostles and other early Christians strike me as being akin to skilled magicians rather than students led by the Holy Spirit.
What about terminology such as "justification," "sanctification," "Omnipotent," "eternal" -- are those simply straightforward, easy-to-understand words? No. Where does the Bible say that we must only use simple, easy-to-understand words to describe things in the Bible?
Paul once said that he spoke in Christian wisdom to those who are mature. Have you seen some of Paul's writings? He definitely used some big words, and the Apostle Peter even wrote that some of Paul's writings were hard-to-understand:
2 Peter 3:15-16 (ESV): And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Some more things I posted on January 2nd:
fjtoth said: The Trinity doctrine is forced and unnatural.
What do you mean by "unnatural"? Are you trying to say that the infinite, omnipotent, eternal God should be natural, or easy-to-comprehend for a finite imperfect human?
No, rather, the Bible teaches that God is anything BUT "natural":
Acts 17:29 (ESV): Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.
Isaiah 40:18 (ESV): To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?
Romans 1:22-23 (ESV): Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
fjtoth said: It is incomprehensible and unexplainable, and yet many of its converts insist we must believe it in order to gain salvation.
1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (ESV): And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
You can believe in something without completely, fully comprehending it. For example, you do believe that God has always existed, don't you? Can you fully comprehend that? Why, then, do you believe that God always existed?
Believing in the Deity of Christ is required for salvation. (John 8:24 among many others)
Yet again, something else I posted on January 2nd:
The New Testament says two different things about Jesus:
1:) He knew ALL things, and knew what was in men, and knew the hearts and minds of people.
2:) He had to learn things as a Human, and also "learn" obedience by suffering.
Therefore, as God, Jesus knew ALL things; as Man, He had to learn things like you and I.
And, one last thing I posted on January 2nd:
At what point did Jesus "become God-by-proxy," considering the fact that Jesus was God in the beginning with The Father? (John 1:18 and John 1:1) Also, at what point did Jesus "become Lord-by-proxy," considering the fact that Jesus was Lord while in Mary's womb, and was also Lord at His birth? (Luke 1:43 and Luke 2:11)
As you can see, there are LOTS of questions and points I have raised which you have never even commented on. I could go back farther than January 2nd and post MORE that you have never commented on, but this should be enough for you to check out for now.
