The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped 218 Replies latest watchtower bible

UnDisfellowshipped

fjtoth said:
Even people who were not yet Christians were able to see the difference. They were not like Trinitarians. The accomplishments of Jesus did not convince them that he was God. Instead, they saw the work of God in the work Jesus was doing as God's agent: "But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men." (Matthew 9:8) Were those people guilty of blasphemy for not viewing Jesus as Almighty God? Then why accuse others who have the same perception they had? Before his resurrection, the apostles never said Jesus was God. Were they blasphemous? When Jesus asked them who they thought he was, Peter answered: "You are the Christ [Messiah], the Son of the Living God." And Jesus told Peter that it was God who revealed that to Peter. If Jesus was God, why didn't the Father reveal that to Peter? (Matthew 16:16, 17)
Yet, different people in the crowds also believed that Jesus was:
1): Elijah
2:) Jeremiah
3:) John the Baptist resurrected
4:) A lying imposter
5:) A demon-possessed lunatic
6:) A glutton and a drunkard
So, do you really believe that it is wise to follow the crowd?
Also, why should we accept Peter's confession yet REJECT or IGNORE the Apostle Thomas' confession?
Is one Apostle's confession more important than another Apostle's confession?

John 20:28-29 (LITV):
And Thomas answered and said to Him, My Lord and my God! Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me, Thomas, you have believed. Blessed are the ones not seeing, and believing.
Thomas actually, literally, said "THE LORD OF ME and THE GOD OF ME!" and Jesus commended Thomas for believing this way.
Did Thomas serve TWO Gods, or only One God? If Thomas did indeed believe in and serve TWO Gods, then he was a polytheist, NOT a Jewish monotheist. If Thomas was wrong, why did Jesus commend him and say that people will be blessed for believing the same as Thomas believed?
How could Thomas have TWO distinct Persons both be THE GOD of him?
Do you, Frank, confess Jesus as "THE GOD OF ME"? Do you honor the Son to the same degree that you honor The Father (John 5:23)?
Do you pray to The Son? (John 14:14)
Do you worship The Son? (Revelation Chapter 5, Hebrews 1:6)
Do you live for The Son? (Philippians Chapter 3, Romans Chapter 14)
UnDisfellowshipped

Now, about Hebrews 1:3: Several translations make it clear that The Son is being compared to light rays shining forth from the sun (The Father).
Hebrews 1:3 (Analytical-Literal Translation): who being [the] outshining of His glory and [the] exact expression of His essence, and sustaining all the [things] by the word of His power, having Himself made by Himself a purification [or, purgation] of our sins, sat down at [the] right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 (American Standard Version): who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3 (Bible in Basic English): Who, being the outshining of his glory, the true image of his substance, supporting all things by the word of his power, having given himself as an offering making clean from sins, took his seat at the right hand of God in heaven;
Hebrews 1:3 (Complete Apostles' Bible): who being the effulgence of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 (English Majority Text Version): who being the effulgence of His glory and the exact expression of His substance, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 (Revised Version): who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Hebrews 1:3 (Amplified Bible): He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine], and He is the perfect imprint and very image of [God's] nature, upholding and maintaining and guiding and propelling the universe by His mighty word of power. When He had by offering Himself accomplished our cleansing of sins and riddance of guilt, He sat down at the right hand of the divine Majesty on high,
Hebrews 1:3 (Darby Translation): who being [the] effulgence of his glory and [the] expression of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, having made [by himself] the purification of sins, set himself down on the right hand of the greatness on high,
Hebrews 1:3 (New Life Version): The Son shines with the shining-greatness of the Father. The Son is as God is in every way. It is the Son Who holds up the whole world by the power of His Word. The Son gave His own life so we could be clean from all sin. After He had done that, He sat down on the right side of God in heaven.
WordNet definition of "EFFULGENCE": "the quality of being bright and sending out rays of light"
Even the Kingdom Interlinear Translation on the Interlinear side shows that The Son is being compared to rays of light shining forth from The Father.
Jaimieson, Fausset, Brown (JFB):
Heb 1:3
-
Who being
— by pre-existent and essential being.
brightness of his glory
— Greek, the effulgence of His glory. "Light of (from) light" [Nicene Creed]. "Who is so senseless as to doubt concerning the eternal being of the Son? For when has one seen light without effulgence?" [Athanasius, Against Arius, Orations, 2]. "The sun is never seen without effulgence, nor the Father without the Son" [Theophylact].
UnDisfellowshipped

On January 2nd, I posted the following reply to your statements about God speaking of Himself in the singular, yet, apparently, you have overlooked them, ignored them, or something, because you keep claiming that I never responded to those statements you made. Well, here they are AGAIN, just to make sure you see them:
My response to the DECEMBER 6TH POST from FJTOTH:
fjtoth said:
God is not “Three Persons.” He has only one face, not three. This is clear from passages like Job 1:12 where we are told “Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.” The word for “presence” is paniym. Consult a lexicon and you will find that it means “face” or “person.”
That Hebrew word can also mean "faces" (plural). I'm not saying that it definitely does mean "faces" in the plural in the verses where God is referred to, but it is interesting to note that this word CAN be used in the plural. Look at these verses:
Job 9:24 (ESV): The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges-- if it is not he, who then is it?
Job 13:10 (LITV): Reproving He will reprove you if you secretly lift up faces.
When God speaks in the Bible, most of the time, only One Person is speaking at a time, not all Three Persons. Thus that argument doesn't prove that the Trinity is false, it simply shows that only One Person of God appeared and spoke at one time. Jesus said that no human has ever seen The Father, so every human who saw God in the Old Testament actually saw God The Son.
Also, when God talks about having "hands," "feet," "nostrils," "a face," "a back," etc., He is speaking in terms that we humans can understand. God doesn't actually have human hands, feet, or a human face. He is a SPIRIT, and we cannot comprehend what a spirit body is, especially not an INFINITE SPIRIT BEING (who is Omnipresent as well), so God chose to speak of Himself using human terms. These terms are called "Anthropomorphisms."
fjtoth said:
Additionally, God said, "You cannot see my face (singular), for no man can see me and live!" (Exodus 33:20) According to the Bible, God is one person with one face, not three persons with a separate face for each person!
See my comments above. When One Person of God appears and speaks in the Bible, it does not necessarily mean that the other Two Persons will also appear and speak.
Most of the time, in the Old Testament, God appeared to people, and spoke to people, as One Person. He did not fully reveal His Tri-Unity until the New Testament when Jesus came to proclaim the truth more fully and clearly.
There are certain times, however, in the Old Testament where God showed that there was more than One Person who is God:
Genesis 1:26-27 (ESV): Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Genesis 11:7-8 (ESV): Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech." So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.
Isaiah 6:8 (ESV): And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."
Check out John 12:41, where it says that Isaiah saw the glory of JESUS in the events of Isaiah Chapter 6, and also see Acts 28:25 where it says that The Holy Spirit was the One speaking in Isaiah Chapter 6.
And last, but not least:
Zechariah 3:1-3 (LITV): And he made me see Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! And, Jehovah who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire? And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and he stood before the Angel.
That Scripture clearly shows at least TWO Persons called Jehovah, perhaps Three. Jehovah invoked another Person named Jehovah to rebuke the Devil, thus, the Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah, according to Zechariah 3:1-3 and many other verses.
(I am adding a new comment here:) Just because The Son is speaking to someone or revealing Himself to someone, does not mean that The Father will also speak and reveal Himself at the exact same time. For example, when Jesus appeared and spoke to Paul, He appeared and spoke without God The Father, yet, this does not prove that there is NO Father just because Jesus did not speak of "US" or "OUR," instead Jesus spoke using "MY" and "ME". Your reasoning is faulty and proves nothing against the Trinity.
Also, why did you say that God NEVER said "US," but then in the next paragraph, you said that God did indeed say "US" three times in Genesis?
Also, you apparently overlooked the time in Isaiah when God also said "US."
UnDisfellowshipped

fjtoth said:
It is merely a Trinitarian theory that "begotten" means to be born of the same "nature." You have no evidence for such a theory in the Bible. Jesus is God's special Son, but he is not God's only Son. Since the exaltation of Jesus to heavenly glory, God has begotten thousands of other men and women and made them the brothers of Christ. (John 20:17; Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18; Hebrews 2:11, 12, 17)
Look up "begotten" in the dictionary. Also, it was a different Greek word "Monogenes" used for Jesus that was NOT used for any of the disciples who were born again.
The Bible says that Jesus is the "Only-Begotten Son" of God, or, according to most modern translations, "the One and Only Son" of God. Yet, you said "Jesus [...] is not God's only son."
Why does the Bible call Jesus God's ONLY-Begotten Son or ONE AND ONLY Son?
UnDisfellowshipped

fjtoth said:
Let me ask you: When angels appeared to men and women, did they appear as animals, or did they appear as men? If man is in the image of God, and angels appeared as men, in whose image were they? I'm sure you won't answer that question honestly or forthrightly because to do so would put a damper on your theory of the Trinity.
The Bible is clear that angels shouted for joy during the creation, much of which took place before man and woman were brought upon the scene. But you will deny that Bible fact because it too puts a damper on your theory. So, all things considered, I feel you are a very dishonest person, Undisfellowshiped. And it's for that reason I have sincere doubts that you have read the Bible as much as you claim you have.
The Bible never says that angels are created in the image of God, even though that is a definite possibility. Yes, the Bible says the angels shouted for joy when God created. What is your point? All Trinitarians that I know believe that. How does that in any way weaken the Trinity?
If you are trying to say that God was speaking to angels in Genesis 1:26, you are sadly mistaken, however, because whoever God was speaking to was a CO-MAKER with God -- He helped God MAKE MAN!
If you can show me a Scripture that says the angels made humans together with God in the image of angels and God, then I will believe that God was speaking to angels in Genesis 1:26. If you cannot do that, then I will always believe that God was speaking to His Son and His Spirit.
Also, have you never read Isaiah 44:24 where Jehovah says that no one was with Him when He created the heavens and the earth, and that He created them BY HIMSELF?
UnDisfellowshipped

fjtoth said:
Everything the Son has was given to him. And it was given to him after he was born and more so after he was resurrected from the dead.
So, do you deny that Jesus existed before He came to earth as a Human? I would really appreciate knowing your answer to that question.
Who was the Logos (the Word) from John 1:1-14? The Bible says that the Word was God, and that the Word became flesh.
Who was "the Image of the Invisible God" and "Firstborn" in Colossians 1:15-18?
Who was the One who existed in God's Form in Heaven in Philippians 2:5-11?
How about all of the times when Jesus said that He came down from heaven (and from above)?
Also, I recommend that you read Ephesians chapter 4:
Ephesians 4:7-10 (ESV): But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, "When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men." (In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
The Apostle Paul wrote that the One who ascended into heaven, had also descended from heaven to the earth.
Jesus said the same thing at John 3:13:
John 3:13 (ESV): No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
UnDisfellowshipped

fjtoth, when you said this:
Additionally, verse 7 speaks of the "companions" or "partners" of the God of verse 6, and it tells how he got to be "set above" them. He was not always above them. He got to be so because God, his God, anointed him.Almighty God has never had companions or partners as equals.
What were you trying to say?
If you were trying to show that since Jesus had companions, and "companions" must mean equals, therefore, Jesus must have only been a human, then Zechariah 13:7 proves that you are wrong, because there Jesus is called the "Companion" of God.
Or, if you were trying to say that Jesus could not be God because Jesus had "companions" and Almighty God does not have any companions, then once again, Zechariah 13:7 proves that you are wrong, because according to that verse, God does have a "Companion."
UnDisfellowshipped

Frank (fjtoth), You asked some questions about Zechariah 13:7, (the main question being: If Zechariah 13:7 teaches that "Companion" means "Equal," and Jesus was God because He was the "Companion" of God, and since Jesus had human "companions", does that mean all of Jesus' human companions are also equal to God).
The simplest answer to your question is this:
The Bible teaches that The Word became 100% Flesh (100% Human). Hebrews 2:14-17 says that Jesus had to become just like His human brothers, and to partake of flesh and blood like them. He also kept His Divine Nature as God (Colossians 2:9, Philippians 2:6).
Therefore, the Bible teaches that Jesus was fully, 100% Man, and fully, 100% God at the same time. He had two distinct natures in ONE Person. I do not have any idea how this happened, or how Jesus' two natures interacted with each other. The Bible is, for the most part, silent on this. The Bible does, however, make it clear that Jesus knew ALL things, was omniscient, and could read all thoughts, and see all things at any place, and yet, He also did not know at least one certain thing (the day and the hour of the End), and had to learn things and grow like all other humans.
This makes it clear that Jesus was fully God (therefore, He was omniscient), yet, He was also fully Man (therefore, He had to learn and grow).
Once we believe this Biblical teaching, then we can understand that Zechariah 13:7 was calling The Son, as a Divine Person of the Trinity, God's Equal Companion, and also, Psalm 45:7 was calling The Son, as fully 100% Human, the equal companion of men on earth.
The Divine Nature of Jesus Christ has no equal companions, except The Father and The Spirit (because they are all Three equally Divine), but the human nature of Christ did have equal human companions in the sense that they were both 100% fully human, and probably also in the sense that Jesus had temporarily taken the position of a "slave" or "servant" of God, a little lower than the position of angels.
Psalm 45:7 was simply saying that God anointed Jesus (as a Man) above His fellow humans (or perhaps, more specifically, above His fellow human kings).
Zechariah 13:7 was saying that God has another fellow Partner or Companion who has the same Nature.
I look forward to seeing your replies to any of the posts I have posted yesterday and tonight.
abbagail

Undf'd wrote: " Jesus said that no human has ever seen The Father, so every human who saw God in the Old Testament actually saw God The Son."

AMEN! Jesus IS JEHOVAH of the OT.

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have always remained in the "invisible realm."

It is and always has been GOD THE SON who stepped forward out of the "invisible realm" to deal with MANKIND.

HE is the GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE WORD, the One who walked w/Adam & Eve in the Garden, who spoke to Abraham, who spoke to Hagar, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who stood before Joshua as Captain of the Host, etc. etc. It was always GOD THE SON who stepped forward from the invisible to the visible realm to deal with and save Mankind, who became flesh and dwelt among us. It always was JESUS (JEHOVAH) the WHOLE TIME. Praise the Lord!

And it is JESUS (JEHOVAH - LORD) whose feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 12:5 I believe is the exact verse).

-----------

And no man revealed this to me, but it was by the Holy Spirit late this past summer of 2006.

Then later it was "confirmed" to me in an amazing "Holy Spirit timing" kind of way. Awesome!

(Of course this revelation came after I had already been given understanding of the Trinity, after fretting about that for a few years, and eventually just praying that I WANTED to believe it and "understand" it but just didn't -- So then eventually God directed me to the perfect type of explanation that I, personally, could understand. ONE Word - sometimes all it takes is ONE WORD -- a Hebrew word in this instance - echid or echad -- I forget which now... would have to go look it up -- it was at a Messianic Jewish website -- and it's in the SHEMA Deut. 6:4 and it means COMPOSITE. "The LORD Our God is ONE (COMPOSITE) LORD." Praise God! That was early 2005. So ONE THING at a TIME! ;-) Like stepping stones!

BTW, glad to see you're still around Undf'd! and working hard as ever, I see, in your posts! ;-)

/ag
UnDisfellowshipped

Hi Abbagail ("GRITS")! Longtime no see (or read, in this case)!
I have had a hectic & crazy couple of years, but the Lord Jesus has graciously delivered me through them so far. I changed jobs a couple a times, moved a couple of times, and various other things happened. That's why I didn't post on here as much as I used to. Boy, I sure did miss posting here though.
You said:
AMEN! Jesus IS JEHOVAH of the OT.

God the Father and God the Holy Spirit have always remained in the "invisible realm."

It is and always has been GOD THE SON who stepped forward out of the "invisible realm" to deal with MANKIND.

HE is the GOD OF THE BIBLE, THE WORD, the One who walked w/Adam & Eve in the Garden, who spoke to Abraham, who spoke to Hagar, who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, who stood before Joshua as Captain of the Host, etc. etc. It was always GOD THE SON who stepped forward from the invisible to the visible realm to deal with and save Mankind, who became flesh and dwelt among us. It always was JESUS (JEHOVAH) the WHOLE TIME. Praise the Lord!

And it is JESUS (JEHOVAH - LORD) whose feet will stand on the Mount of Olives (Zech. 12:5 I believe is the exact verse).
-----------
AMEN to that!
You said:
And no man revealed this to me, but it was by the Holy Spirit late this past summer of 2006. Then later it was "confirmed" to me in an amazing "Holy Spirit timing" kind of way. Awesome! (Of course this revelation came after I had already been given understanding of the Trinity, after fretting about that for a few years, and eventually just praying that I WANTED to believe it and "understand" it but just didn't -- So then eventually God directed me to the perfect type of explanation that I, personally, could understand. ONE Word - sometimes all it takes is ONE WORD -- a Hebrew word in this instance - echid or echad -- I forget which now... would have to go look it up -- it was at a Messianic Jewish website -- and it's in the SHEMA Deut. 6:4 and it means COMPOSITE. "The LORD Our God is ONE (COMPOSITE) LORD." Praise God! That was early 2005. So ONE THING at a TIME! ;-) Like stepping stones!
Wow, that's great to hear! No person can ever be persuaded or convinced or argued into the truth of God and the truth of the Trinity merely by humans. It requires the Holy Spirit.
You said:
BTW, glad to see you're still around Undf'd! and working hard as ever, I see, in your posts! ;-)
Well, thank you, and I am very happy to see that you are still posting here as well! :-) I give all credit for my posts (or, I should say, for the correct, truthful information that I post), to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He is the One, through His Holy Spirit, that gives me my understanding of His Word.
God bless you Abbagail.

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

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