The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped 218 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    My response (continued) to fjtoth's post from December 4th:

    fjtoth said:

    Additionally, verse 7 speaks of the "companions" or "partners" of the God of verse 6, and it tells how he got to be "set above" them. He was not always above them. He got to be so because God, his God, anointed him. Almighty God has never had companions or partners as equals.

    You claimed that "God Almighty has never had companions or partners as equals." But the Bible says differently:

    Zechariah 13:7 (NKJV): “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd, Against the Man who is My Companion,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Strike the Shepherd, And the sheep will be scattered; Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

    Zechariah 13:7 (NLT): “Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, the man who is my partner,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies. “Strike down the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered, and I will turn against the lambs.

    Zechariah 13:7 (KJV): Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    Zechariah 13:7 (A Conservative Version): Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man who is my companion, says LORD of hosts. Smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered. And I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

    Zechariah 13:7 (American Standard Version): Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith Jehovah of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered; and I will turn my hand upon the little ones.

    I highly recommend that you research what the Hebrew word for "Companion" or "Fellow" is in that verse, and also, please look at how it is used throughout the Hebrew Scriptures. You will find it enlightening, I believe.

    Here are different verses that show that The Father does have an equal Companion:

    John 1:18 (ESV): No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

    John 13:3 (ESV): Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he had come from God and was going back to God,

    Matthew 11:27 (ESV): All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

    John 3:35 (ESV): The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

    John 5:20-23 (ESV): For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    John 17:4-5 (ESV): I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

    John 5:17-18 (ESV): But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    A human father and a human son are EQUALLY HUMAN. Just because a human father has authority over his human son, and his son subjects himself to his human father, does not make the human son any less of a human being than his father is. A human father can be "greater" than his son in position, power, and authority, but cannot be "better" in nature -- they are both equally human beings. A human father is not MORE human than his son is.

    It is the same way with God. God The Father has a greater position within the Trinity and greater authority, but is NOT better in nature than His Son.

    fjtoth said:

    The fact needs to be stated clearly that there are two definitions for God in the Bible.

    Correct -- there are two main types of gods in the Bible:

    1: The Only True God, the Almighty, who is God by Nature.
    2: Any other being that is called god is a so-called god who is not god by nature.

    Then, within the so-called gods, you have two different types of gods:

    1: Representatives and/or spokesmen of God (such as the judges in Psalm 82, angels, Moses, etc.).
    2: False gods (which includes Satan, demons, idols, etc.).

    fjtoth said:

    The words for “God” in both Hebrew and Greek applied to people as well as to God. One definition refers to God himself, and the other definition refers to special individuals appointed by him to speak in his name.

    I agree.

    fjtoth said:

    Jesus in Psalm 45:6 and Hebrews 1:8 is obviously the latter. His Father is the Great Anointer, and Jesus is the lesser Anointed One, the Christ.

    Just because Jesus is anointed by The Father, that proves that He must be an inferior, lesser god?? I don't agree with that at all. In fact, as I said above in another post, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was anointed above His companions when He was made, for a little while, lower than the angels as a Man on earth.

    Jesus Christ's HUMAN Body/Soul was created by God The Father through the Holy Spirit, and thus, God The Father was greater than Jesus' Human Nature, and God anointed Jesus (as a Man) above His fellow humans.

    Hebrews 10:5-7 (ESV): Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

    fjtoth said:

    The Jews read this Psalm for centuries and, knowing the flexibility of the word “God,” they never concluded that the Messiah would somehow be part of a Triune God.

    The Jews also (at least the Pharisees and Sadduccees), by the 1st Century, had completely distorted the Word of God, as Jesus plainly told them:

    Matthew 15:6-9 (ESV): he need not honor his father.' So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: "'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.'"

    The majority of Jews also REJECTED Jesus as The Messiah. So, obviously, the majority of Jews did not have a very good idea of WHO the Messiah was going to be. They also rejected the idea that the Messiah would suffer and die for their sins.

    John 5:39-40 (ESV): You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

    Also, the Jewish leaders completely twisted around the Sabbath Laws, and many other laws.

    I base my beliefs on the BIBLE, NOT on how the Jews understood the Bible, NOT on the "traditions" of the Jews.

    Jesus said not to rely on the ancient "traditions" of the Jews about how the Bible should be understood:

    Matthew 15:2-3 (ESV): "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat." He answered them, "And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?

    Matthew 5:43-44 (ESV): "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

    Mark 7:13 (ESV): thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do."

    Do you think it is wise to rely so much on what the Jews (who rejected the Messiah) believed about the Messiah?
    ____________________________________________________________

    My response to the DECEMBER 6TH POST from FJTOTH:

    fjtoth said:

    God is not “Three Persons.” He has only one face, not three. This is clear from passages like Job 1:12 where we are told “Satan departed from the presence of the Lord.” The word for “presence” is paniym. Consult a lexicon and you will find that it means “face” or “person.”

    That Hebrew word can also mean "faces" (plural). I'm not saying that it definitely does mean "faces" in the plural in the verses where God is referred to, but it is interesting to note that this word CAN be used in the plural. Look at these verses:

    Job 9:24 (ESV): The earth is given into the hand of the wicked; he covers the faces of its judges-- if it is not he, who then is it?

    Job 13:10 (LITV): Reproving He will reprove you if you secretly lift up faces.

    When God speaks in the Bible, most of the time, only One Person is speaking at a time, not all Three Persons. Thus that argument doesn't prove that the Trinity is false, it simply shows that only One Person of God appeared and spoke at one time. Jesus said that no human has ever seen The Father, so every human who saw God in the Old Testament actually saw God The Son. Also, when God talks about having "hands," "feet," "nostrils," "a face," "a back," etc., He is speaking in terms that we humans can understand. God doesn't actually have human hands, feet, or a human face. He is a SPIRIT, and we cannot comprehend what a spirit body is, especially not an INFINITE SPIRIT BEING (who is Omnipresent as well), so God chose to speak of Himself using human terms. These terms are called "Anthropomorphisms."

    fjtoth said:

    Additionally, God said, "You cannot see my face (singular), for no man can see me and live!" (Exodus 33:20)According to the Bible, God is one person with one face, not three persons with a separate face for each person!

    See my comments above. When One Person of God appears and speaks in the Bible, it does not necessarily mean that the other Two Persons will also appear and speak.

    fjtoth said:

    This is further shown in Exodus 33:11: “The Lord used to speak to Moses face to face, just as a man speaks to his friend." God has one face and Moses had one face. And if God truly treated Moses as a friend, Moses would have known God as a Trinity, but he did not.

    Who says that Moses did not know God as a Trinity? One Person of God (The Son, who was THE Angel of the Lord, who had YHWH's Name within Him) chose to appear to Moses and speak directly to him face-to-face. No human has ever seen The Father, including Moses.

    The Bible makes it clear that Moses certainly knew about at least TWO Persons of the Trinity -- The Father and The Son:

    1 Corinthians 10:1-4 (ESV): I want you to know, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank fromthe spiritual Rock that followed them,and the Rock was Christ.

    Exodus 14:19-20 (ESV): Then the angel of God who was going before the host of Israel moved and went behind them, and the pillar of cloud moved from before them and stood behind them, coming between the host of Egypt and the host of Israel. And there was the cloud and the darkness. And it lit up the night without one coming near the other all night.

    Exodus 23:20-21 (ESV): "Behold, I send an angel before you to guard you on the way and to bring you to the place that I have prepared. Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him.

    Hebrews 11:26-27 (ESV): He considered the reproach of Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he was looking to the reward. By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king, for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.

    Exodus 3:2, 6, 14 (ESV): And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush was burning, yet it was not consumed. [...] And he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob." And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look at God. [...] God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

    Moses also knew about the Third Person of the Trinity, The Holy Spirit:

    Exodus 31:1-3 (ESV): The LORD said to Moses, "See, I have called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with ability and intelligence, with knowledge and all craftsmanship,

    Numbers 11:29 (ESV): But Moses said to him, "Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!"

    In fact, look at this Scripture in Isaiah about the time of Moses, referring to the Holy TRINITY in the Old Testament!:

    Isaiah 63:9-11 (ESV): In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them; in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; he lifted them up and carried them all the days of old. But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit; therefore he turned to be their enemy, and himself fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people. Where is he who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of his flock? Where is he who put in the midst of them his Holy Spirit,

    That Scripture refers to:

    1:) God The Father.
    2:) The Angel of God's Presence, who is the Savior and Redeemer of God's people.
    3:) The Holy Spirit, who can be grieved and hurt.

    Three Persons of God, mentioned in the same paragraph in the Old Testament!

    fjtoth said:

    Speaking of God as “Three Persons” is an emotional and traditional concept, not one based upon Scripture, reason or fact. Job understood that God has one soul, not three: “And what his soul [singular] desires, that he does.” (Job 23:13) God himself said, "My righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back, my soul [singular] has no pleasure in him." (Heb. 10:38) God has but one soul or nephesh or psyche, not three.

    Most of the time, in the Old Testament, God appeared to people, and spoke to people, as One Person. He did not fully reveal His Tri-Unity until the New Testament when Jesus came to proclaim the truth more fully and clearly.

    There are certain times, however, in the Old Testament where God showed that there was more than One Person who is God:

    Genesis 1:26-27 (ESV): Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

    Genesis 11:7-8 (ESV): Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech." So the LORD dispersed them from there over the face of all the earth, and they left off building the city.

    Isaiah 6:8 (ESV): And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."

    Check out John 12:41, where it says that Isaiah saw the glory of JESUS in the events of Isaiah Chapter 6, and also see Acts 28:25 where it says that The Holy Spirit was the One speaking in Isaiah Chapter 6.

    And last, but not least:

    Zechariah 3:1-3 (LITV): And he made me see Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of Jehovah, and Satan standing at his right hand to accuse him. And Jehovah said to Satan, Jehovah rebuke you, Satan! And, Jehovah who has chosen Jerusalem rebuke you! Is this not a brand plucked out of the fire? And Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and he stood before the Angel.

    That Scripture clearly shows at least TWO Persons called Jehovah, perhaps Three. Jehovah invoked another Person named Jehovah to rebuke the Devil, thus, the Angel of Jehovah is Jehovah, according to Zechariah 3:1-3 and many other verses.

    fjtoth said:

    The idea that God bows down to or worships anyone is blasphemous for the simple reason that God is Almighty. It denigrates him to having equals. He has no equals, and he bows to no other person.

    True, God has no equals. But, think for a moment. What if, when the Bible says God has no equals, it is referring to the entire Trinity of God? Could it be that the Bible is actually saying that THE TRINITY has no equals? Have you ever thought about it that way?

    The Bible says (in Psalm 89) that no angel or created being in heaven is ANYTHING like God at all. Nothing compares to YHWH. Then, Hebrews 1:3 declares that Jesus is EXACTLY LIKE God's Very Being! How can those two statements be harmonized without believing that Jesus is God?

    fjtoth said:

    If it were faintly possible that you are correct in saying that the Father worships others as a loving servant, we should read somewhere that God the Father is a Servant. Never do we read the slightest suggestion of that.

    I never, ever said that The Father worships anyone. However, The Father does glorify The Son, and The Son glorifies The Father. The Father also called The Son LORD (YAHWEH) at Hebrews 1:10.

    The Son was sent by The Father, and The Son became the Human Servant of The Father. The Son worships The Father. Not the other way around.

    The Father does have the highest love and devotion towards His Son, however, I don't believe "worship" would be the correct word to use when talking about what The Father does toward the Son.

    fjtoth said:

    On the other hand, we do read of Jesus being God’s Servant. Jesus performs the will of the Father, and it is never the other way around!

    I agree.

    fjtoth said:

    Jesus told a Samaritan woman “You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) Why do Trinitarians ignore this statement of Jesus? He said plainly that the Jews knew what they worshipped, and yet they did not worship a Trinity!

    Yet, Jesus also showed that the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders had a distorted, perverted view of God's love and justice and mercy and grace. So, were the Jews worshiping God correctly at the time of the Pharisees and Sadduccees? The Sadduccees taught that God was not even going to resurrect anyone! The Pharisees taught that God forbade people from helping others or saving others on the Sabbath Day. They also taught that we should "hate our enemies." Is that a correct view of the God that Jesus described?

    fjtoth said:

    Until today, the Jews are opposed to the idea of the Trinity, and they view it as pagan superstition.

    Also until today, the Jews are opposed to the idea that Jesus was the Messiah, and they view Him as an imposter and a blasphemer. Do you see why we cannot rely on what the Jews believe? We must go by what the BIBLE SAYS, not merely what humans say.

    fjtoth said:

    I am firmly convinced that Jesus the Jew would tell all Trinitarians what he told the Samaritan woman: “You worship what you do not know!”

    Well, I am firmly convinced that, unfortunately, when Unitarians appear before the Great White Throne of the Lord Jesus Christ, He will say to them: "Get away from Me, I never knew you," because the Jesus that Unitarians are going to stand before will be the Almighty Alpha and Omega, the Creator, the Eternal God, the Lord of Heaven -- YAHWEH Himself!

    If you are right about Jesus, you are right for all eternity. If you are wrong about Jesus, you are wrong for all eternity. There is no second chance after death.

    fjtoth said:

    Jesus told the Samaritan woman that “the Father” is looking for true worshipers. (John 4:23) He said, “for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers.” He did not say, “for such people the Father and the Holy Spirit and I seek to be our worshipers.”

    But, look at this other Scripture in John, where Jesus said that The Father is seeking for people to give GLORY to Jesus:

    John 8:50 (ESV): Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.

    Jesus does not seek His own worship and glory, but The Father DOES seek for people to glorify and worship The Son.

    fjtoth said:

    Jesus said, "Go, Satan! For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" (Matt. 4:10) Here Jesus said God is to be worshiped and served “only.” He did not direct attention to himself. The word used here for “served” is latreuo, a word used in the NT with reference to the Father and never with reference to Jesus. If Jesus is the Almighty God who is to be given latreuo service, it seems reasonable that he would have said “You shall worship me your Lord God, and serve me only.” But Jesus said nothing of the kind.

    Jesus quoted only Holy Scripture when arguing with the Devil. That is why Jesus did not say "worship ME." Instead He quoted the Scripture exactly as it is written. This does not, in any way, prove that Jesus was not the Lord God mentioned in the Scripture He quoted. In fact, Jesus spoke of Himself in the 3rd person very frequently in the Gospels, especially when referring to Himself as The Son of Man.

    Jesus directs attention to His Father, and His Father directs attention to Jesus.

    Also, it is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for "Serve" used in the Deuteronomy Scripture that Jesus quoted in Matt. 4:10, IS USED for the Messiah in the Old Testament in these verses:

    Psalm 72:11 (ESV): May all kings fall down before him, all nations serve him!

    Also, a different Hebrew word for "Serve" (Pelach) was used for the Messiah in Daniel 7:14, which, aside from this reference to the Messiah, is used for worshiping God or worshiping a false god in the Hebrew Scriptures:

    Daniel 7:14 (LITV): And dominion was given to Him, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

    fjtoth said:

    You likened the relationship between God and Jesus to the marriage union of a husband and wife. And you added:

    (As I said, it is not an exact illustration, because the husband and wife are two different beings, while the Trinity Doctrine teaches that The Father, Son, and Spirit are One Being.)

    Then how is the union of a man and a woman in any way similar to the Trinity or a portion thereof? You admit that a man and a woman are each separate “beings,” but the Trinity doctrine unscripturally denies that God and Jesus are individual “beings.” The Trinity is so incomprehensible and unreasonable that there is absolutely nothing that the human mind can compare to it. So why bother trying to use an illustration of any kind?

    The husband and wife illustration is similar to the Trinity, in the fact that a husband can be the "head" of his wife and be "greater" than his wife, yet the husband is NOT better in nature than the wife. They are still both equally human beings.

    The reason I used the husband and wife illustration is because of this Scripture which the Watchtower Society tries to use against the Trinity:

    1 Corinthians 11:3 (ESV): But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.

    Since that verse is not saying that a wife is inferior or lesser in nature than her head, then, it is also not saying that Christ is inferior or lesser in nature than His Head, God The Father. This verse is referring to POSITION, NOT NATURE.

    Also, just because something is "mysterious" or hard-to-comprehend, does NOT mean that it is unbiblical. The belief that God never had a beginning is also hard-to-comprehend, and is "mysterious," yet the Bible says it's true.

    fjtoth said:

    And why should such theoretical terminology be of any value to a Christian? Can you imagine Jesus or the apostles using such terms? The Bible as I read it is very straightforward and easy to understand. Trinitarians have chosen to spice it up with mysticism and what to my mind resembles witchcraft. Teachers who use terms that would be totally unfamiliar to the apostles and other early Christians strike me as being akin to skilled magicians rather than students led by the Holy Spirit.

    What about terminology such as "justification," "sanctification," "Omnipotent," "eternal" -- are those simply straightforward, easy-to-understand words? No. Where does the Bible say that we must only use simple, easy-to-understand words to describe things in the Bible?

    Paul once said that he spoke in Christian wisdom to those who are mature. Have you seen some of Paul's writings? He definitely used some big words, and the Apostle Peter even wrote that some of Paul's writings were hard-to-understand:

    2 Peter 3:15-16 (ESV): And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

    fjtoth said:

    Thousands of times and for thousands of years, for example, God spoke of himself in terms of “I” and “me” and “myself” and “my” and “mine.”

    But, as I pointed out above, God also spoke of Himself as "Us" and "Our."

    fjtoth said:

    His worshipers spoke of him with the words “he” and “his” and "him" and “himself.” It amazes me that Trinitarians choose to blind themselves to that fact. As I see it, every one of those thousands of times where God says “I” or “me” he is testifying against the Trinity doctrine. Where are the thousands of hints that God is a Trinity?

    As I said above, just because only One Person of the Trinity is speaking at one time does not at all disprove the Trinity.

    fjtoth said:

    The Trinity doctrine is forced and unnatural.

    What do you mean by "unnatural"? Are you trying to say that the infinite, omnipotent, eternal God should be natural, or easy-to-comprehend for a finite imperfect human?

    No, rather, the Bible teaches that God is anything BUT "natural":

    Acts 17:29 (ESV): Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man.

    Isaiah 40:18 (ESV): To whom then will you liken God, or what likeness compare with him?

    Romans 1:22-23 (ESV): Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    fjtoth said:

    It is incomprehensible and unexplainable, and yet many of its converts insist we must believe it in order to gain salvation.

    1 Corinthians 2:13-14 (ESV): And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

    You can believe in something without completely, fully comprehending it. For example, you do believe that God has always existed, don't you? Can you fully comprehend that? Why, then, do you believe that God always existed?

    Believing in the Deity of Christ is required for salvation. (John 8:24 among many others)

    fjtoth said:

    But it gets worse. The Trinity doctrine blasphemes Almighty God. The Bible describes God, for example, as all-knowing and all-wise, but Trinitarians say their God-man had to “learn obedience.” How that teaching must cause both God and Jesus to wince every time they hear it! I could give other examples, but this entry is much too long already.

    The New Testament says two different things about Jesus:

    1:) He knew ALL things, and knew what was in men, and knew the hearts and minds of people.
    2:) He had to learn things as a Human, and also "learn" obedience by suffering.

    Therefore, as God, Jesus knew ALL things; as Man, He had to learn things like you and I.

    fjtoth said:

    Jesus is not “a god” as Jehovah’s Witnesses claim. God said concerning an angel, "Be on your guard before him and obey his voice; do not be rebellious toward him, for he will not pardon your transgression, since my name is in him." (Ex. 23:21) Then he said to Moses concerning the coming of Jesus into the world, "I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. It shall come about that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him." (Deut. 18:18, 19) And that is why Jesus could say, "I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him." (John 5:43) The angel was not Almighty God and neither is Jesus. But both spoke in God's name because each was the one person empowered by God to speak and act for God. As God by appointment, Jesus wields all the authority that God has allowed him to have. He did not always have that appointment. There was a time when he became God-by-proxy, just as there was a time when he became Lord-by-proxy: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified." (Acts 2:36) "He is the one whom God exalted to his right hand as a Prince and a Savior, to grant repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins." (Acts 5:31)

    At what point did Jesus "become God-by-proxy," considering the fact that Jesus was God in the beginning with The Father? (John 1:18 and John 1:1) Also, at what point did Jesus "become Lord-by-proxy," considering the fact that Jesus was Lord while in Mary's womb, and was also Lord at His birth? (Luke 1:43 and Luke 2:11)

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    fjtoth said:

    As shown above, Trinitarians unscripturally depict God with THREE faces, but God has only ONE face.

    First of all, Christians, Trinitarian or otherwise, should not be making pictures of God or the Divine Being. The Bible forbids that. So, the Trinitarians who did that in the past were sinning by doing that. So are Unitarians or anyone else who makes an image of God.

    fjtoth said:

    Interestingly, the Son is "the exact representation." Of all who have represented God, none has done it more precisely or more exactly than his Son.

    How can the Son be "the exact representation" of God's Very Being (Heb. 1:3), as you yourself agree with, while the Bible also says at Psalm 89 (among other places) that not even the very greatest and highest of angelic creatures is anything like God?

    fjtoth said:

    It does not say, "In the beginning was Jesus" or "In the beginning was the Son." Neither does it say "In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and God was God."

    It says:

    1: In the beginning was the Word. (John 1:1)
    2: The Word was God. (John 1:1)
    3: All things were made through the Word, therefore, the Word existed BEFORE all things. (John 1:3)
    4: The Word became flesh. (John 1:14)
    5: The Word is the Son of God. (John 1:14)
    5: The Word is Jesus Christ (Revelation 19:13; John 1:16-17)

    fjtoth said:

    But John does speak of "the beginning." You are assuming that this means "BEFORE anything was ever created" or "BEFORE anything else existed." Those are your words.

    No, they are the Bible's words. Read John 1:3:

    John 1:3 (ESV):

    All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    The Word, the Logos, existed before any thing was ever created, because not even one thing was ever created without the Logos!

    fjtoth said:

    This seems to mean a lot to you,

    Yes, the truth of the Scriptures does mean a lot to me.

    fjtoth said:

    and you seem to believe that your interpretation of the wording is proof conclusive that "the Word" had no one to speak to "in the beginning." But let me point out to you that not everyone is in agreement concerning "the beginning" mentioned here. Neither is everyone in agreement as to exactly what John had in mind by inserting what seems to be poetry at the beginning of his Gospel, something none of the other Gospel writers thought to do. One theory is that "in the beginning" in John 1:1 is the same "in the beginning" as in Genesis 1:1. I'm not saying I agree with that, but suppose it were true. Were not the angels present at that time? (1 Kings 22:19; Job 38:4-7)

    To be honest, I don't care about what these other ideas are. I am going strictly by JOHN 1:3! John 1:3 says that The Logos existed BEFORE any thing was ever made, because every single thing was made through the Logos. The angels were created through the Logos, therefore, the Logos had to exist BEFORE the angels. (Colossians 1:16) That's just simple logic, unless you can explain how God created all things through the Logos before the Logos existed.

    fjtoth said:

    So, your argument is not very sound, even though you used the phrase "There is NO WAY . . ." You apparently are not taking everything into account as you attempt to explain some verses. Surely, if the angels were present, there could have been many joyful conversations as Job 38 and other passages clearly suggest.

    Oh boy! Have you ever read John 1:3? Or Colossians 1:16-17?

    John 1:3 (ESV):

    All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Colossians 1:16-17 (ESV):

    For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    The scripture says: "'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man, my associate,' declares the LORD of hosts. 'Strike the shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; and I will turn my hand against the little ones.'"

    The speaker is "the LORD of hosts." In the prophecy's fulfillment, the shepherd is Jesus Christ.

    Does the verse say that the shepherd is "God," or does it say he is "the man, my associate"?

    If someone is God's "associate," does that mean he also is God or equal with God? The Hebrew word for "associate" is used only ten times in the Scriptures. It is translated in various ways, but it is never translated as "God," and it never means "God". It is translated variously as "another," "associate," "companion," "friend," "neighbor" and "partner."

    But if "the man" is God's associate, companion or partner, does that mean "the man" is equal to God?

    Think about this: Trinitarians claim that Jesus is "God." Therefore, if Jesus has associates, companions or partners, does that make them "God" as well?

    The Bible foretold that Jesus would have companions. Psalm 45:7 promised him: "God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

    Remember, Trinitarians say the "shepherd" of Zechariah 13:7 is "God," though the text says he is "the man."

    Trinitarians say the "shepherd" is "God" due to the fact that he is God's "companion." They claim that only someone equal to God could possibly be God's "companion."

    But, if Jesus in Psalm 45:7 is God himself, as Trinitarians claim, what should be said of the "companions" of God in that verse?

    If God's "companion" (in Zechariah 13:7) is equal to God, should not Trinitarians say that the "companions" (in Psalm 45:7) are equal to God? But Trinitarians do not say that. Very Inconsistently they interpret "companion" in one passage to mean "God," but they deny "companions" in another passage are equal to God.

    Just ANOTHER example of how Trinitarians twist and distort the Scriptures!

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Whom do YOU believe, the Trinitarians or God?Do you worship the THREE EQUAL GODS of the Trinitarians,
    or the ONE GOD of the Bible who has NO EQUALS?

    .

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Trinitarians point to Zechariah 13:7 and claim God has an equal. There "the Lord of hosts" speaks of a shepherd as "the man, my associate." Trinitarians say "associate" means "equal." That means the shepherd associate is a person "equal with God."

    Trinitarians also tell us the Lord of hosts is really THREE PERSONS. Those three Persons compose one entity or being. The three distinct Persons of the Trinity are one God, not three Gods.

    However, you might at this point be prone to ask, "But doesn't that make four persons? Three are in heaven as the Lord of hosts, and one is on the earth as the shepherd associate."

    A Trinitarian friend will respond, "Well, no, not exactly. You see, one Person of the Trinity is a God-man. He has both God's nature and man's nature."

    But that leads to another question: "Does this mean half of one of those persons is in heaven and the other half is on earth? Doesn't that make two persons separated by the vast exspanse of universal space? And doesn't that mean they are actually two separate beings, one with a spirit body in heaven and the other with a physical body on the earth?

    Perhaps feeling a bit confused by the question, our Trinitarian friend might say "Well, no. The shepherd on earth is the God-man. When Jesus was on the earth he was both God and man. Now in heaven he is still both God and man, having both the divine nature and human nature.

    You may feel that this leads to still another question: "Does this mean, then, that in Zechariah's day, when the Lord of hosts spoke of his shepherd associate, that he was really only two persons of the Trinity? In other words, they were in heaven, and the God-man was on the earth. If the Trinity in heaven was composed of three persons, wouldn't that make four members of the Trinity if we include the person on earth?

    Now, these are not the kinds of questions that Trinitarians want to hear. Such questions indicate you are probing too far into the deep things of God. Before you decide to ask any more questions, your Trinitarian friend and guide will probably suggest that we all move on to another topic.

    If you do probe deeper, you may discover that Trinitarians actually worship three gods, after all. It is much better for the sake of your salvation to conclude that the Trinity is a mystery not to be understood by finite minds such as ours.

    .

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    fjtoth, this is what you said earlier in this thread:

    Additionally, verse 7 speaks of the "companions" or "partners" of the God of verse 6, and it tells how he got to be "set above" them. He was not always above them. He got to be so because God, his God, anointed him. Almighty God has never had companions or partners as equals.

    You implied that because the Bible says Jesus had human "companions" or "partners," this meant that He was just a Human who needed to be set above His equal companions. You also said that God has never had companions or partners as equals.

    If, as I believe you were trying to claim, the fact that Jesus had human companions means that Jesus was nothing more than a man, then, the fact that Jesus has God as His companion should also prove that He is God. I was using your reasoning. You can't have it both ways.

    Either the fact that Jesus has human companions proves that He was only a human or it does not prove this. Either the fact that Jesus has God as His Companion proves that He is God, or it does not prove this.

    fjtoth said:

    The scripture says: "'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man, my associate,' declares the LORD of hosts. 'Strike the shepherd that the sheep may be scattered; and I will turn my hand against the little ones.'"

    The speaker is "the LORD of hosts." In the prophecy's fulfillment, the shepherd is Jesus Christ.

    I agree so far.

    fjtoth said:

    Does the verse say that the shepherd is "God," or does it say he is " the man , my associate"?

    If someone is God's "associate," does that mean he also is God or equal with God? The Hebrew word for "associate" is used only ten times in the Scriptures. It is translated in various ways, but it is never translated as "God," and it never means "God". It is translated variously as "another," "associate," "companion," "friend," "neighbor" and "partner."

    But if "the man" is God's associate, companion or partner, does that mean "the man" is equal to God?

    But, you implied that because Jesus has human companions, he was only equal to men and not greater, and now, you are arguing against the very reasoning that you tried to use against the Trinity earlier.

    Let me re-ask your question back to you now:

    If Jesus had human associates, companions or partners, does that mean Jesus was only equal to humans and no greater? See, you really cannot use that argument against the Trinity.

    fjtoth said:

    Think about this: Trinitarians claim that Jesus is "God." Therefore, if Jesus has associates, companions or partners, does that make them "God" as well?

    That is a good question. Probably the best question I've been asked in a while. I will try to explain what I believe from what I have read in the Scriptures (I am going to start using the NASB now, since you use that translation, and it does say that it is the most literal, word-for-word translation available):

    The Bible teaches that the Logos becoming a Man is mysterious for humans, we cannot fully comprehend what happened:

    1 Timothy 3:16 (NASB): By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.

    The Bible teaches that while Jesus was on earth, He was God and Man. John 1:1 says that the Logos was God. Then God the Logos became flesh (John 1:14). Now, if God becomes flesh, how could God possibly stop being God? He can't! God can't stop being God. Hebrews 1:2-3 shows that The Son is the One who holds the universe together by His power.

    God the Logos did not stop being God -- instead He enfleshed Himself with Human Nature, He tabernacled in a Human Temple (His Body). The Fullness of The Son's Deity dwelled in His Human Body.

    I do not know for sure how Jesus could be 100% God and 100% Man, but that's what the Bible teaches. He had TWO Natures but He was ONE Person. I don't know how that worked either. But, as the Scriptures say, nothing is impossible for God.

    My answer to your question is this: I am not 100% certain.

    God spoke of the Man Jesus as His equal Companion because the Man Jesus was united to His Deity. Jesus wasn't just God who looked like a human, He actually BECAME FLESH. So, even as a Man, in His Human Nature, Jesus had the Fullness of Deity dwelling in Him.

    However, since Jesus was 100% Human, and was made like "His Brothers" and partook of flesh and blood, Jesus could have human companions who were "equal" in a certain sense. They were equal to His Human Nature, not His God Nature.

    It could also be, that since the words used for "companions" in the Bible can have more than one meaning, that the word "companion" in Zechariah 13:7 had a different meaning than it had in Hebrews.

    Even then, though, Jesus' imperfect human companions would not be completely equal to Jesus, since Jesus was a Perfect Human, and they were sinners.

    It is also possible that God spoke of Jesus as His equal Companion in reference to Jesus' POSITION, not Nature.

    It's also POSSIBLE that in Zechariah 13:7, God was not referring to Jesus as His EQUAL (in that specific Verse).

    I will do some more study and prayer on this particular Scripture and post more about it soon.

    fjtoth said:

    The Bible foretold that Jesus would have companions. Psalm 45:7 promised him: "God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

    Remember, Trinitarians say the "shepherd" of Zechariah 13:7 is "God," though the text says he is "the man."

    Trinitarians say that the Shepherd of Zechariah 13:7 is "God" because Psalm 45:6, as well as the New Testament, says He is God.

    fjtoth said:

    Trinitarians say the "shepherd" is "God" due to the fact that he is God's "companion." They claim that only someone equal to God could possibly be God's "companion."

    Most Trinitarians do not rely on Zechariah 13:7 for their faith in the Trinity. I know I certainly do not and have not relied only on that Scripture as proof of the Trinity during the past. I used it in this thread because I wanted to apply the same reasoning you used and apply it to that verse.

    If you take away Zechariah 13:7 from the Trinitarians, that does not at all in any way weaken the Trinity teaching. The Trinity is mainly found in the New Testament, with certain Old Testament Scriptures.

    fjtoth said:

    But, if Jesus in Psalm 45:7 is God himself, as Trinitarians claim, what should be said of the "companions" of God in that verse?
    If God's "companion" (in Zechariah 13:7) is equal to God, should not Trinitarians say that the "companions" (in Psalm 45:7) are equal to God? But Trinitarians do not say that. Very Inconsistently they interpret "companion" in one passage to mean "God," but they deny "companions" in another passage are equal to God.
    Just ANOTHER example of how Trinitarians twist and distort the Scriptures!

    It should be noted also that the Hebrew word used for "companions" in Psalm 45:7 is different from the Hebrew word used in Zechariah 13:7. According to Strong's, the Hebrew word used in Zechariah 13:7 has the meaning of "a comrade or kindred man: - another, fellow, neighbour," whereas the meaning of the Hebrew word in Psalm 45:7 is simply " an associate: - companion, fellow, knit together. "

    So, the Hebrew word in Zechariah 13:7 has the additional meaning of a "comrade" or "kindred man."

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    fjtoth said:

    Now, these are not the kinds of questions that Trinitarians want to hear. Such questions indicate you are probing too far into the deep things of God. Before you decide to ask any more questions, your Trinitarian friend and guide will probably suggest that we all move on to another topic.

    If you do probe deeper, you may discover that Trinitarians actually worship three gods, after all. It is much better for the sake of your salvation to conclude that the Trinity is a mystery not to be understood by finite minds such as ours.

    I enjoy seeing your questions. To study God's Word and look for Scriptural answers to your questions will strengthen my faith and give me a deeper understanding of God's Truth.

    If the Trinity is the Truth, then no one should ever fear to search the Scriptures for answers to people's questions about the Trinity.

    In the same way, if Unitarianism is true, no Unitarian should ever fear to search the Scriptures to answer a Trinitarian's question about Unitarianism.

    I encourage you to post the hardest, toughest questions you can possibly think of about the Trinity, and I will study the Scriptures and pray to God, and I will post my replies (as I have the time).

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Undisfellowshiped,

    You wrote:

    If, as I believe you were trying to claim, the fact that Jesus had human companions means that Jesus was nothing more than a man, then, the fact that Jesus has God as His companion should also prove that He is God. I was using your reasoning. You can't have it both ways.

    My point was to show the weakness of your argument. I wasn't trying to prove that Jesus was a mere man. You claim Jesus is God because Zechariah says the shepherd is God's companion. My argument is that you are wrong.

    As I've shown above, the shepherd is not equal to God. If Jesus is that shepherd, there is no basis for saying Zechariah 13:7 shows that he is God.

    There is something about Zechariah 13:7 that I don't think you've noticed. If you read the context, you come to see that the shepherd is not a good person. He is someone who is misleading God's nation, such as the religious leaders of Zechariah's day and of Jesus' day. However, the illustration is of a shepherd who is removed by God. The consequences were that the nation of Israel was dispersed. The people "scattered" like sheep.

    This was not a prophecy concerning Jesus and the apostles being scattered. However, Jesus referred to this illustration to show what happens when a shepherd is taken from among the ones he is leading. The principle is the point of Jesus' remark to the apostles.

    I'm sure you will pop back that I'm all wrong about this, but I'm content to know what the context says. Furthermore, when referring to Zechariah 13:7, Jesus omitted the part about God's "companion." He omitted it because he knew God was speaking sarcastically about so-called "companions" that he had appointed to lead Israel. He spoke sarcastically because they were evil and deserved to be slain by the sword.

    In another post I called it a "prophecy," but bear in mind I was approaching the matter from the Trinitarian point of view.

    Frank

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Undisfellowshiped,

    You wrote:

    Either the fact that Jesus has human companions proves that He was only a human or it does not prove this. Either the fact that Jesus has God as His Companion proves that He is God, or it does not prove this.

    I find it difficult to understand your reasoning here. Abraham was God's "friend". The word for "friend" in Hebrew is a very warm one, indicating a "lover." It is a stronger word for "friend" and "neighbor" and "companion" than the Hebrew word used in Zechariah 13:7. I mention this because you seem hung up on the idea that the word for "companion" in Zechariah means "equal." It does not. If the word in Zechariah means "equal," the word with regard to Abraham would mean "equal" even more so, if that were possible. My point is that Abraham was much closer to God than the shepherd in Zechariah. If the shepherd was God, in other words, Abraham was God even more so, to use your logic.

    As I mentioned above, if God meant "equal," he would have said "equal." But he did not. He used a word that is found elsewhere only in Leviticus. If you carefully examine each instance where the word appears in Leviticus, you will note that it is not a very intimate or warm word. It simply means, basically, one's acquaintance or neighborhood friend, not someone as close as a wife or someone such as Jonathan was to David.

    Frank

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    I am posting this just to get some other people's viewpoints on Zechariah 13:7. I am not saying this commentary is definitely correct, as I haven't yet researched the verse enough. But here is one interesting observation:

    Keil & Delitzsche Commentary on the Old Testament (Zechariah 13:7):

    [...] The shepherd of Jehovah, whom Jehovah describes as a man who is His next one (neighbour), cannot of course be a bad shepherd, who is displeasing to Jehovah, and destroys the flock, or the foolish shepherd mentioned in

    Zec_11:15-17 , as Grotius, Umbr., Ebrard, Ewald, Hitzig, and others suppose; for the expression "man who is my nearest one" implies much more than unity or community of vocation, or that he had to feed the flock like Jehovah. No owner of a flock or lord of a flock would call a hired or purchased shepherd his ?a^mi¯th . And so God would not apply this epithet to any godly or ungodly man whom He might have appointed shepherd over a nation. The idea of nearest one (or fellow) involves not only similarity in vocation, but community of physical or spiritual descent, according to which he whom God calls His neighbour cannot be a mere man, but can only be one who participates in the divine nature, or is essentially divine. The shepherd of Jehovah, whom the sword is to smite, is therefore no other than the Messiah, who is also identified with Jehovah in Zec_12:10 ; or the good shepherd, who says of Himself, "I and my Father are one" ( Joh_10:30 ).

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