JW's and John 5:23

by UnDisfellowshipped 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Has anyone on this board ever used John 5:23 when talking to JW's?

  Unfortunately, one of my friends is currently in a "Bible" Study with the JW's (and has been since last year). I asked my friend to ask the JW what John 5:23 means, so my friend did ask the JW who was conducting the "Bible" Study. The JW said she would do "research" into John 5:23 and get back to my friend. It has now been close to a year, and the "Bible" Study conductor is still "researching" this Verse -- John 5:23.

  I highly recommend asking any JW friends or relatives that you have to explain what John 5:23 means -- here is how it reads in the New World Translation, as well as a few other Translations:

  JOHN 5:23 (New World Translation): in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

  JOHN 5:23 (New Century Version): so that all people will honor the Son as much as they honor the Father. Anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

  JOHN 5:23 (Contemporary English Version): The Father wants all people to honor the Son as much as they honor him. When anyone refuses to honor the Son, that is the same as refusing to honor the Father who sent him.

  JOHN 5:23 (Good News Bible): so that all will honor the Son in the same way as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

  JOHN 5:23 (King James Version): That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

  You could also point out that in the context immediately before this statement, the Jews were trying to kill Jesus for claiming to be EQUAL to God in John 5:18.

  Do Jehovah's Witnesses honor the SON just as they honor the FATHER? If so, how exactly?
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  Star Moore

  hi undis...

  Wow, I've never seen this scripture before.. Thanks for sharing. Lately I have been thinking, about Rom. 10:13.. Everyone that calls on the Lord will be saved. It seems to be talking about Jehovah in the OT and Jesus in the NT. I was thinking that giving reverence to Jesus is the same as giving reverence to God..be-cause his holy spirit is totallly engulfing his every thought and action. So, even though i don't think Jesus is God.. I do think, that honoring Jesus is the same as honoring God.. Because he is the exact representation of him... It would be like if you had a big dimple on your chin.. and your little son did too. And if someone complimented your son's dimple, you would consider it a compliment to you too, as you have the same exact dimple..and he inherited it from you. You think this makes sense???
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  jwfacts

  A very good point.

  Strongs has the word Kathos 2531

  1) according as

  a) just as, even as

  b) in proportion as, in the degree that

  2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that

  3) when, after that

  The terminology in the NWT looks correct, but it seems to present a subtle difference in meaning. As a JW I had read the term to mean that we need to honor both father and son. Looking at the concordance it shows 'just as' means the honor should be to the same degree.

  I had always had concern over John 5:18 " On this account, indeed, the Jews began seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath but he was also calling God his own Father, making himself equal to God." I do not understand why Jesus calling himself the son of God was equated to being equal to God, however in verse 23 it shows Jesus did claim he should receive equal honor.

  I will be interested to see what Nark or Leo have to say on it.
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  Mrs Smith

  I have just read Heb:, the whole chapter seems to indicate that God wants us to worship Jesus. Even the NWT, although I have other easire to read versions of the bible that I prefere to read!! It's wonderful to read the bible without the watchtower filter, make you realise how much of the bible was twisted and turned to suit the JW doctrines. Thanks for info UnDisfellowshipped
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  Mrs Smith

  Sorry didn't check my post. It's Hebrews chapter 1
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  bernadette

  Here's what adam Clarke says

  Verse 23 . That all men should honour the Son, Son is to be honoured, EVEN AS the Father is honoured, then the Son must be God, as receiving that worship which belongs to God alone. To worship any creature is idolatry: Christ is to be honoured even as the Father is honoured; therefore Christ is not a creature; and, if not a creature, consequently the Creator. See John 1:3.

  Burton Coughman's commentary

  Verse 23
  That all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father.

  No stronger statement of the deity of Christ appears in Scripture. How is God honored? By the soul's purest adoration and worship. That is the way Christ should be honored. These words are equivalent to Jesus' saying, "I am God and am entitled to all the honor belonging to the Father?"

  John Calvin's commentary

  23. That all men may honor the Son. This clause sufficiently confirms the suggestion which I threw out a little ago, that when it is said that God reigns in the person of Christ, this does not mean that he reposes in heaven, as indolent kings are wont to do, but because in Christ he manifests his power and shows himself to be present. For what else is the meaning of these words, that all men may honor the Son, but that the Father wishes to be acknowledged and worshipped in the Son? Our duty, therefore, is to seek God the Father in Christ, to behold his power in Christ, and to worship him in Christ. For, as immediately follows, he who honoureth not the Son deprives God of the honor which is due to him. All admit that we ought to worship God, and this sentiment, which is natural to us, is deeply rooted in our hearts, so that no man dares absolutely to refuse to God the honor which is due to him; yet the minds of men lose themselves in going out of the way to seek God. Hence so many pretended deities, hence so many perverse modes of worship. We shall never, therefore, find the true God but in Christ, nor shall we ever worship Him aright but by kissing the Son , as David tells us, ( Psalm 2:12 ;) for, as John elsewhere declares,

  He who hath not the Son hath not the Father, (1 John 2:23.)

  Apologise what such a lot of info but am fascinated by what other christians had to say and how they compare with the wts. Love the way Calvin puts it.

  Berndette
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  moggy lover

  Just a brief remark: I did a search in the WT CD Rom 04 and came up with nothing. There is a quote from Jo 5:22 then it skips to Jo 5:24

  Dont hold your breath waiting for some earth-shattering information. I seem to remember being taught, as far back as the 60s, to say that as a representative of Jujuber Jesus was deserving of "respect" [I don't remember the WT actually admitting to the fact that Christ was worthy of "honour"] while He was here on earth. To the best of my recollection they do not apply this verse to Christ today. Naturally they can't when they openly boast [In the Revelation book] that even in their songs which they use in their "worship", the songs are weighted fully in favour of Juu etc to the detriment of the Son. Russell's song book was more objective, with as many applying to the Son as the Father.

  Evidently to the WTS, Jesus' words at Jo 5:23 apply to the Jews who, by nailing Jesus to the wooden thingee, failed to give Him the respect He deserved. But my information may be out of date.

  Cheers
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  gumby

  The bible also says to honor your father and your mother........so, should we worship them as we do god?

  I don't feel your point makes any validity as to Jesus being equal to god in all aspects just because it says to honor him as you do god. The point in John isn't qualifiying the word 'honor' as being of equal value in all contexts. If the scripture said to honor your parents as you honor god, it wouldn't mean that all are equal in nature anymore than the scripture that states for men to love their wives along with the scripture that tells us to love god.

  Honor doesn't mean equality on all levels.

  hon·or (nr) n. 1. High respect, as that shown for special merit; esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate. 2. a. Good name; reputation. b. A source or cause of credit: was an honor to the profession. 3. a. Glory or recognition; distinction. b. A mark, token, or gesture of respect or distinction: the place of honor at the table. c. A military decoration. d. A title conferred for achievement. 4. High rank. 5. The dignity accorded to position: awed by the honor of his office. 6. Great privilege: I have the honor to present the governor. 7. Honor Used with His, Her, or Your as a title and form of address for certain officials, such as judges and mayors: Her Honor the Mayor. 8. a. Principled uprightness of character; personal integrity. b. A code of integrity, dignity, and pride, chiefly among men, that was maintained in some societies, as in feudal Europe, by force of arms. c. A woman's chastity or reputation for chastity. 9. honors Social courtesies offered to guests: did the honors at tea. 10. honors a. Special recognition for unusual academic achievement: graduated with honors. b. A program of individual advanced study for exceptional students: planned to take honors in history. 11. Sports The right of being first at the tee in golf. 12. Games a. Any of the four or five highest cards, especially the ace, king, queen, jack, and ten of the trump suit, in card games such as bridge or whist. b. The points allotted to these cards. Often used in the plural. tr.v.hon·ored, hon·or·ing, hon·ors 1. a. To hold in respect; esteem. b. To show respect for. c. To bow to (another dancer) in square dancing: Honor your partner. 2. To confer distinction on: He has honored us with his presence. 3. To accept or pay as valid: honor a check; a store that honors all credit cards. Idiom: honor bound Under an obligation enforced by the personal integrity of the one obliged: I was honor bound to admit that she had done the work. [Middle English, from Old French, from Latin.] honor·er n. Synonyms: honor, homage, reverence, veneration, deference These nouns denote admiration, respect, or esteem accorded to another as a right or as due. Honor is the most general term: The hero tried to be worthy of the honor in which he was held. Homage is often in the form of a ceremonial tribute that conveys allegiance: "There is no country in which so absolute a homage is paid to wealth" Ralph Waldo Emerson. Reverence is a feeling of deep respect and devotion: "Kill reverence and you've killed the hero in man" Ayn Rand. Veneration is both the feeling and the reverential expression of respect, love, and awe: Her veneration for her mentor never wavered. Deference is courteous, respectful regard for another that often implies yielding to him or her: The funeral was arranged with deference to the family of the deceased Gumthegreat
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  M.J.

  Gumby ya missed the point. It says to honor the Son to the extent that you honor the Father.

  That's mind boggling when you think about it, especially when Jesus is saying this to a bunch of Jews.

  All the detailed discussions regarding the nature of Christ, was he created, etc., are trumped by this simple command.
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  TheListener

  Do the scriptures actually say to honor anything or anyone as we do God? - except for Christ?

  If not, then honoring Jesus as we do God makes a bigger point that is hard to argue against.

  We can't argue against by saying 'what if the bible said this or that'. The bible either says it or doesn't.

  If, however, the bible does say to honor someone or something the same as we do god then the point of Jesus stating his equality is in doubt, as Gumby pointed out.