JW's and John 5:23

by UnDisfellowshipped 50 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Interesting how the WTS used to cite this same verse:

    The Watchtower, October 15, 1945, p. 313

    When God’s only begotten, firstborn Son was made a man on earth, Jehovah God saw good to "make him but little less than messengers divine", or less than godly angels, elohim. (Ps. 8: 5, Roth. Pss.) Now, at Christ’s coming to reign as king in Jehovah’s capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. This does not mean that Christ Jesus is Jehovah, a "Jehovah-Christ", as certain religionists say; but it simply fulfills what Jesus said on earth: "The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." (John 5: 22, 23) Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah’s Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy. The holy angels gladly obeyed the divine command and they proved their worship of Jehovah’s new King and their subjection to him by joining in his "war in heaven" against Satan and his wicked angels.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    If the argument rests, not on the verb "honor" (which as has been pointed out is not limited to worship of a deity) but on the mere construction "just as" (also NRSV), see the comparable constructions in Ephesians:

    5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord.

    6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ.

    Of course there is much more to the relationship of "the Father" and "the Son" in GJohn but it takes more than a single verse for it to be shown.

  • Matt_fs
    Matt_fs

    Gumby said:

    "The bible also says to honor your father and your mother........so, should we worship them as we do god?"

    The point is that the bible doesnt say to honor your mother and father the same as you should God, but the bible does say to honor Jesus the same as you would the Father.

    Cheers

    Matt

  • BCZAR2ME
    BCZAR2ME

    hon or:

    high respect as that shown for special merit: esteem: the honor shown to a Nobel laureate

    The principal Hebrew term denoting "honor" literally means "heaviness." So a person who is honored is regarded as being weighty, or amounting to something.

    Can honor then not be given to Jesus and Jehovah equally?

    bczar

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Narkissos said:

    If the argument rests, not on the verb "honor" (which as has been pointed out is not limited to worship of a deity) but on the mere construction "just as" (also NRSV), see the comparable constructions in Ephesians:

    5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord.

    6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ.

    Of course there is much more to the relationship of "the Father" and "the Son" in GJohn but it takes more than a single verse for it to be shown.

    I agree that it usually takes more than one verse to show that Jesus Christ is fully God (and I don't think anyone should just change all of their beliefs because of seeing one Scripture, without checking out all of the facts), but I think John 5:23 would definitely make some JW's start to think.... "hmmm" ... especially if they look up on the Watchtower Library CD and find out that the Watchtower Society has been nearly SILENT on this particular verse!

    That said, in the Ephesians verses you posted, a DIFFERENT Greek word was used than in John 5:23. The Greek word used in Ephesians was "HOS" and the Greek word used in John 5:23 was "KATHOS."

    Look through the New Testament and you will see that at times there is a definite difference in the way these two words are used.

    Here is the definitions of these two words from Strong's:

    G2531?a??´?
    katho¯s
    kath-oce'
    From G2596 and G5613; just (or inasmuch) as, that: - according to, (according, even) as, how, when.
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    G5613
    ???
    ho¯s
    hoce
    Probably adverb of compound from G3739; which how, that is, in that manner (very variously used as shown): - about, after (that), (according) as (it had been, it were), as soon (as), even as (like), for, how (greatly), like (as, unto), since, so (that), that, to wit, unto, when ([-soever]), while, X with all speed.
    ------------------------------------------------------

    Also, look below at Thayer's definitions for these two words:

    G2531
    ?a??´?
    katho¯s

    Thayer Definition:

    1) according as1a) just as, even as1b) in proportion as, in the degree that
    2) since, seeing that, agreeably to the fact that
    3) when, after that
    -------------------------------------------------------

    G5613
    ???
    ho¯s

    Thayer Definition:

    1) as, like, even as, etc.
    -------------------------------------------------------

    In John 5:23, the Greek word translated "Just as" was "KATHOS." Look at how this word is used throughout the Gospel of John:

    John 1:23 (KJV): He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as [Gr: "kathos"] said the prophet Isaiah.

    John 3:14 (KJV): And as [Gr: "kathos"] Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

    John 5:30 (KJV): I can of mine own self do nothing: as [Gr: "kathos"] I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

    John 6:31 (KJV): Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as [Gr: "kathos"] it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

    John 6:57 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    John 6:58 (KJV): This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as [Gr: "kathos"] your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live forever.

    John 7:38 (KJV): He that believeth on me, as [Gr: "kathos"] the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as [Gr: "kathos"] my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

    John 10:15 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

    John 10:26 (KJV): But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as [Gr: "kathos"] I said unto you.

    John 12:14 (KJV): And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as [Gr: "kathos"] it is written,

    John 12:50 (KJV): And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as [Gr: "kathos"] the Father said unto me, so I speak.

    John 13:15 (KJV): For I have given you an example, that ye should do as [Gr: "kathos"] I have done to you.

    John 13:33 (KJV): Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as [Gr: "kathos"] I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.

    John 13:34 (KJV): A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as [Gr: "kathos"] I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

    John 14:27 (KJV): Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as [Gr: "kathos"] the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    John 14:31 (KJV): But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as [Gr: "kathos"] the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

    John 15:4 (KJV): Abide in me, and I in you. As [Gr: "kathos"] the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

    John 15:9 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

    John 15:10 (KJV): If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as [Gr: "kathos"] I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

    John 15:12 (KJV): This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as [Gr: "kathos"] I have loved you.

    John 17:1-2 (KJV): These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

    John 17:11 (KJV): And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as [Gr: "kathos"] we are.

    John 17:14 (KJV): I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as [Gr: "kathos"] I am not of the world.

    John 17:16 (KJV): They are not of the world, even as [Gr: "kathos"] I am not of the world.

    John 17:18 (KJV): As [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

    John 17:21 (KJV): That they all may be one; as [Gr: "kathos"] thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 17:22 (KJV): And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as [Gr: "kathos"] we are one:

    John 17:23 (KJV): I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as [Gr: "kathos"] thou hast loved me.

    John 19:40 (KJV): Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as [Gr: "kathos"] the manner of the Jews is to bury.

    John 20:21 (KJV): Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as [Gr: "kathos"] my Father hath sent me, even so send I, you.

    Also, look up that Greek word ["kathos," Strong's Number G2531] in the other Gospels and see how it was used.

    Here is a famous Verse with that word in it:

    Luke 6:31 (KJV): And as [Gr: "kathos"] ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.

    This Greek word (KATHOS) is used 27 times in the New Testament in the phrase "As it is written [in the Scriptures]."

    The Greek word used in Ephesians is a DIFFERENT word; it is "HOS."

    Look how "HOS" is sometimes used:

    John 1:39 (KJV): He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about [Gr: "hos"] the tenth hour.

    John 6:19 (KJV): So when they had rowed about [Gr: "hos"] five and twenty, or thirty furlongs, they see Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the ship: and they were afraid.

    John 11:18 (KJV): Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about [Gr: "hos"] fifteen furlongs off:

    Acts 1:15 (KJV): And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about [Gr: "hos"] a hundred and twenty,)

    So, the Greek word used in Ephesians could mean several different things, depending on how it was used. It could mean "about" or "like," "similar." But, the Greek word in John 5:23, in the majority of verses where it is used, means "JUST LIKE" or "TO THE SAME DEGREE."

    So, NOWHERE does the Bible ever command us to honor our parents JUST LIKE or TO THE SAME DEGREE as God The Father. In fact, Jesus said that our love for Jesus must be in such a way that in comparison, our love for our parents will look like hatred.

    Also, it is important to note that Jesus' statement in John 5:23 did not occur in a vacuum. Look at the surrounding context:

    In John 5:16, the Jews wanted to kill Jesus because He was working on the Sabbath. In Verse 17, Jesus replied that He has the same rights and authority to work on the Sabbath that HIS Father has. In John 5:18, the Jews try to kill Him even more now because not only is He working on the Sabbath, He also claimed to be equal to God by calling Him "My Father."

    Now, take a look at John 5:18, and 5:20-24, and it becomes quite obvious to me what Jesus was saying to the Jews:

    John 5:18, 20-24 (ESV): This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. [...] For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will. The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

    The Pharisees (rightfully so) believed that ONLY Almighty God would render judgment and raise the dead and forgive sins and grant eternal life, but they failed to understand that God is not ONE PERSON, but THREE Persons -- The Father, The Son, and The Spirit.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Look at what I discovered.... look at these precious gems of "truth"(tm) from the Faithful Slave Class, about JOHN 5:23:

    The Watchtower, December 15, 1974, Page 739, 740-741:

    “HE THAT does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” (John 5:23) These words of Jesus Christ make it clear that an approved relationship with God depends upon honoring his Son.

    If we want this approved relationship, we have reason to be concerned about whether we are giving the Son the honor his position deserves. And just what is his position? Of the authority entrusted to him by his Father, Jesus Christ said: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.” (Matt. 28:18) Centuries earlier it had been foretold about him: “There has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”—Isa. 9:6.

    [...] seek to honor Jesus Christ by living each day in full recognition of his being God’s appointed King and Executioner
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    The Watchtower, December 15, 1977, Page 745:

    We remember at all times that Jehovah is the One to be worshiped, but that God has chosen to give honor to his Son. (John 5:23)
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    The Watchtower, October 1, 1983, Page 21:

    Isaiah also foretold that Jesus would be a “Mighty God.” Before coming to earth he was “a god” in the sense that he was “the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” (John 1:1; Colossians 1:15)After dying as a human and being raised as an immortal spirit, he is a god in the sense that he partakes bodily of “the divine quality.”Colossians 2:9; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16.

    However, there is an authority associated with the title “Mighty God.” In the Bible certain men were called gods. Why? Because they served as judges in the nation of Israel. (Psalm 82:1-6) Jesus, the “Mighty God,” is Jehovah’s great appointed Judge. He himself explained what this meant: “The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”—John 5:22, 23.
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    MY COMMENT: What does that mean? What does the Watchtower Society mean when they say that now Jesus is "a god" because He is now a partaker of the "divine quality"? What is the "divine quality"? The NWT Reference Bible Footnote says "godship" instead of "divine quality" and the Kingdom Interlinear Translation says "divinity."
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    The Watchtower, December 1, 1983, Page 19:

    In Jesus’ day his hearers knew the God of Abraham, of Isaac and of Jacob. Their ancestors worshiped Jehovah, and they had Jehovah’s temple in their midst. What they needed to see was the importance of honoring and following Jesus. Thus Jesus said that all should “honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”—John 5:23.

    21 Today the situation is reversed. Members of Christendom’s churches say a great deal about the Son but overlook “the Father who sent him.” It was God who exalted Jesus “to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:9-11.
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    The Watchtower, July 15, 1986, Page 14:

    Apostates who deny Christ do not have Jehovah as their Friend. (John 5:23) But we who publicly ‘confess the Son have the Father,’ being in an approved relationship with God. (Matthew 10:32, 33)
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    Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1, Page 1,136:

    Since it was Jehovah God who highly exalted his Son, all who refuse to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the immortal King of kings and Lord of lords dishonor the Father. Because of who he is and what he has accomplished, the Son deserves honor and loyal support. (Joh 5:23; 1Ti 6:15, 16; Re 5:11-13) All who desire to be honored by the Son as his approved disciples must imitate his example and faithfully adhere to his teaching.—Ro 2:7, 10.
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    Our Kingdom Ministry, December 1990, Page 8:

    If people inquire about our belief, we can assure them that we honor Christ Jesus, since that is required of those who honor God. (John 5:23)
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    The Watchtower, February 1, 1991, Page 15:

    Honor the Son, Jehovah’s Chief Agent

    “He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”—JOHN 5:23

    TODAY many in Christendom claim to honor Jesus Christ, yet they do just the opposite. How? Well, many claim that Jesus is Almighty God, and that God, the Creator of all things, came to earth and lived and died as a man. This claim is embodied in the Trinity doctrine, which is the fundamental teaching of Christendom. But if the Trinity is false, if Jesus is, in fact, lesser than and subordinate to God, would not this misrepresentation of his relationship with God make Jesus unhappy? Indeed, he would consider such a misrepresentation a dishonor to himself and everything he taught.

    The truth is, Jesus never claimed to be God [...] Jesus never even suggested that he was God or was equal to him. So to teach such a thing dishonors Jesus.-----------------------------------------------------

    The Watchtower, November 15, 1991, Page 30:

    Christ himself said: “The Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.”—John 5:22, 23.
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    The Watchtower, December 15, 1994, Page 25:

    By not directing prayers to Jesus personally, we are not degrading his position. Rather, Jesus is honored when we pray in his name. And just as children honor their parents by being obedient, we honor Jesus Christ by obeying his commandments, especially the new commandment to love one another.—John 5:23; 13:34.-----------------------------------------------------

    Compare that statement with JOHN 14:14 (see especially the Kingdom Interlinear Translation where it says "ask me"):

    John 14:14 (ESV): If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
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    The Watchtower, August 1, 1999, Page 21:

    All those who want to live in God’s new world after this present system is destroyed must honor God and his Son, Christ Jesus, and obey them. (John 5:22, 23; Philippians 2:9-11) Those who do not show such honor “will be cut off from the very earth.” On the other hand, the upright ones who do honor and obey God and Christ “are the ones that will reside in the earth.”—Proverbs 2:21, 22.
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    Our Kingdom Ministry, March 2001, Page 1:

    What a fine opportunity to honor our heavenly Father! While the observance focuses on Jesus, the honor and respect shown for what he accomplished glorifies the Father, who sent him.—John 5:23.
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    The Watchtower, January 1, 1954, Page 31:

    Worship is not asked to be given to the anointed King whom Jehovah God sets upon his holy hill of Zion, namely, his Son Jesus Christ, but due submission and respect are asked of the kings and judges of the earth, in these words: “Serve Jehovah with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the son, lest he be angry, and ye perish in the way, for his wrath will soon be kindled.” (Ps. 2:11, 12, AS) This agrees with the recognition that the apostle Paul says must yet be given to the glorified Jesus by all living creation, at Philippians 2:9-11 (NW): “God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” The knee is bent in the name of Jesus as Lord and in worship to the Father as God, and the tongue confesses openly that Jesus Christ is Lord, but this is done to the glory of God the Father, all this showing the superiority of the Father. Thus, “all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.”— John 5:22, 23, NW.-----------------------------------------------------

    The Watchtower, May 15, 1954, Pages 318-319:

    Jesus’ angel (Rev. 1:1, 2; 22:16) told John, a man on earth, to worship, not Jesus, but God, Jehovah God the Father of Jesus. That is the One whom Jehovah’s witnesses worship. But we remember that such worship has to be rendered to Jehovah God through his High Priest Jesus Christ. For this reason it is that Jehovah’s witnesses follow the instruction of Philippians 2:10, 11: “So that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven [angels] and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [not the Almighty God, but Lord] to the glory of God the Father.” (NW) Jehovah’s witnesses “honor the Son just as they honor the Father,” for, “he that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” (John 5:23, NW) Jehovah’s witnesses give to Jesus all the honor, respect, consideration, obedience, imitation, love and loyalty that Jehovah God calls upon them to render to his Son Jesus Christ. In Jesus’ name they render their prayers and worship to Jehovah God. And the angels of heaven obey the command of God and “worship” his Son only as their worship of the Son is related to the worship of his Father Jehovah God.
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    The Watchtower, October 1, 1962, Pages 592-597:

    ALL along the evidence has been mounting up from John’s own writings that Jesus Christ was the Son of God. This very fact in itself argues that Jesus as a Son was dependent upon God and was not equal to God. A son is not greater than his father, but must honor his father, according to God’s command. As God’s Son, Jesus said: “I honor my Father.” (John 8:49) How, then, can anyone say he was making himself God or the equal of God when he said: “The Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him”? (John 5:22, 23, AV) In those words Jesus was not telling us to honor him as being the Father or as being God. He did not say we were to honor the Son as much as the Father.

    34 Look at Jesus’ words again and see why he said he was to be honored just as the Father is to be honored. Jesus said that the Father had appointed him to be judge, to act as the deputy or representative of God the Supreme Judge. Hence as God’s appointed Judge the Son deserved to be honored. By honoring the Son we show respect for God’s appointment of the Son as Judge. If we do not honor the Son as Judge, then we do not honor “the Father which hath sent him.” But that does not mean we honor the Son as being God himself or honor the Son as much as God himself, who sent the Son.

    35 Even God the Father did not honor or glorify the Son as his equal. But God did honor or glorify his Son Jesus Christ more than all his other sons. Certainly, then, the one whom God honors or glorifies, we too ought to honor. In fact, God requires us to do so. Jesus himself said: “If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God.” (John 8:54, AV) Jesus’ Father was the God of the Jews. They did not consider Jesus to be a God-Man, God himself in the flesh; and Jesus did not pretend to be God. He said that the Deity who the Jews said was their God was the One who honored Jesus. Then Jesus went on to declare he was not as great as God but was greater than Abraham because of having a prehuman existence in heaven.

    36 The title “father” means a male parent, and a male parent means a progenitor, an author or source, one who begets or brings forth offspring. Since God was the Father of Jesus, was Jesus also dependent upon God for life? Only Jesus’ own words could give a convincing answer to this question. Note now these words of Jesus: “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself.” (John 5:25, 26, AV) God as the Father is the Source of life; and he gives to his Son the privilege to have life in himself. We can therefore appreciate what John 1:4, 5 (AV) says of the Word or Logos: “In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.”

    37 The life that enlightens men who are going down into the darkness of death is from the Father as the Source and is through the Son as the channel. The Son received the life from the Father. So the apostle Peter could well say to his Master Jesus Christ: “Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.”—John 6:68, 69, AV.

    38 When speaking of himself as a human sacrifice to be laid down for the life of believing men, Jesus showed the origin of his own life, saying: “He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.” (John 6:56, 57, AV) Eaters who live by Jesus begin to live by means of him. So too Jesus began to live by means of God. So if the Son Jesus had been coeternal with his Father and without a beginning of life, how could he truthfully say: “I live by the Father”? Hence Jesus was really a Son of God in having received his life from God. He got his life from his heavenly Father just as much as a man who feeds on Jesus’ human sacrifice by faith gets life through Jesus and lives by him. Were it not for Jesus as a human sacrifice, the man would never live forever in God’s new world. So were it not for God, the Son would never have lived.

    39 Jesus’ own continuance in life depended on his obedience to God his Father. Very fittingly, then, when Jesus was tempted by the Devil to turn stones into bread to break his forty-day fast, Jesus applied to himself the words of the prophet Moses: “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.” (Matt. 4:4, AV) Jesus’ dependence upon God the Father for life is shown in another way. How? In that God raised his Son Jesus from the dead on the third day after he laid down his human life in sacrifice.

    40 In John 5:21 (AS; RS; Dy) Jesus spoke of God’s power to resurrect the dead and give them life, saying: “As the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.” Jesus did not raise himself out of death; he depended upon his immortal Father in heaven to raise him up out of death. On the third day of his sacrificial death God raised up his Son and gave him life again and his Son received it, accepted it or took it up again. It was just as Jesus had said: “Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.”—John 10:17, 18, AV.

    41 Jesus laid down his life (Greek: psykhé; soul). Of course, the Roman soldiers killed him at Calvary, but Jesus permitted them to do so, and this was in harmony with his Father’s will, or by his Father’s commandment to Jesus. Jesus took back his life, not that he took his human sacrifice off the altar or that he raised himself to life, but that on the third day God commanded Jesus to rise from the dead. Jesus did so by accepting or receiving life at his Father’s hand, by God’s authority. As Jesus said: “I have the right to receive it back again; this charge I have received from my Father.”—New English Bible.

    42 Jesus now lives again in heaven. After his return to his Father there, Jesus appeared in a vision to the apostle John and said: “I am the first and the last, and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” He was the first and the last in the matter of resurrection, for John speaks of him as “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, . . . him that loveth us, and loosed us from our sins by his blood.” (Rev. 1:17, 18, 5, AS) He was the first one on earth that God raised from the dead to be “alive for evermore.” He is also the last one whom God raises thus directly, for now God has given an unlocking power, the “keys of death and of Hades,” to the resurrected Jesus. So during his kingdom Jesus as Judge raises and gives life to whom he will.

    43 All this helps us to get the true meaning of what the resurrected Jesus told John to write to the congregation in Laodicea, Asia Minor. Jesus said: “These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.” (Rev. 3:14, AV) Trinitarians argue that this means that Jesus Christ is the Beginner, the Originator or Origin of God’s creation; and they can point to An American Translation and Moffatt’s translation, which read: “The origin of God’s creation.” Note that expression “God’s creation.” This, of course, does not mean creating God, for God is uncreated. Jesus said “God’s creation,” not, “creation by me,” as though he were talking about things created by him. He was talking about works created by someone else, namely, God’s creative works.

    44 In the Greek text the word for “God” [Theou] is in the genitive case. Now in Greek as well as in English the genitive case can mean a number of different relations or connections that the word in the genitive case has to the person or thing that it modifies.

    45 According to Dr. A. T. Robertson it can be a genitive of a number of kinds, such as the Possessive Genitive, the Attributive Genitive, the Subjective Genitive, the Objective Genitive. One Greek grammar explains the genitive of source or author by saying: “The Subjective Genitive. We have the subjective genitive when the noun in the genitive produces the action, being therefore related as subject to the verbal idea of the noun modified. . . . The preaching of Jesus Christ. Rom. 16:25.” Another Greek grammar explains the sense of the subjective genitive, saying: “The SUBJECT of an action or feeling: . . . the good-will of the people (that is, which the people feel).”

    46 Thus the expression “the creation of God” could mean the creation possessed by God or belonging to God. Or, it could grammatically mean also the creation produced by God. The apostle John helps us by his writings to know which kind of genitive it is in the Greek. However, it is agreed by producers of the Greek text of the Christian Scriptures that Revelation 3:14 quoted or borrowed its Greek words from Proverbs 8:22. As translated by Charles Thomson from the Greek Septuagint, Proverbs 8:22 reads: “The Lord created me, the beginning of His ways, for His works.” Certainly there the word “beginning” (Greek LXX: arkhé) does not mean Beginner, Origin or Originator. Plainly it means the first one or original one of God’s ways to be created. This same thought is conveyed in Revelation 3:14 in regard to the “beginning of the creation of God.” Hence the word “God” must be in the Subjective Genitive.

    47 John quoted Jesus as saying that he received his life from his Father, God. There was an interruption of this life, not when “the Word became flesh,” but when he was killed as a man and lay dead for three days. Then he was restored to life by Almighty God’s power, to be alive forevermore, immortal. At his resurrection Jesus Christ was God’s creation or a creation by God. But at the very beginning of all creation Jesus was God’s creation, a creature produced by God. As the Word “in the beginning” in heaven he was the first of God’s creation, “the chief of the creation of God.” (Yg) By means of him as an agent God made all other things, as stated in John 1:3. He was not the Origin or Originator of God’s creation. He was, rather, the Original One of God’s creation.

    48 The New World Translation renders Revelation 3:14 correctly as follows: “the beginning of the creation by God.” In all his writings the apostle John does not apply to Jesus Christ the title Creator (Ktístes) but John ascribes all creation to the “Lord God Almighty, which was and is [ho on], and is to come,” the One seated on his heavenly throne. To him it is said: “Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.” (Rev. 4:8-11; 10:5, 6, AV) The Word was God’s first heavenly creation.

    “MY LORD AND MY GOD”

    49 Teachers of the Trinity doctrine will argue that the Godship of Jesus Christ is proved by the words of the apostle Thomas in John 20:28. Thomas had told the other apostles that he would not believe that Jesus had been resurrected from the dead until Jesus materialized before him and let him put his finger in the print of the nails by which he had been fastened to the stake and until he thrust his hand into Jesus’ side, where a Roman soldier had jabbed him with a spear to make sure of Jesus’ death. So the following week Jesus reappeared to the apostles and told Thomas to do as he had said, to convince himself. “And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.” (AV) In the original Greek text this expression literally reads, word for word: “The Lord of me and the God of me.”

    50 So the trinitarians argue that Thomas’ expression “the God” spoken to Jesus proved that Jesus was the very God, a God of three Persons. However, Professor C. F. D. Moule says that the article the before the noun God may not be significant so as to mean such a thing. Regardless of that fact, let us take into account the situation back there to be sure of what the apostle Thomas meant.

    51 Less than two weeks previously Thomas had heard Jesus pray to his heavenly Father and say: “This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (John 17:3, AV) On the fourth day after that prayer, or on his day of resurrection, Jesus sent a special message to Thomas and the other disciples by means of Mary Magdalene. “Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.” (John 20:17, 18, AV) So from Jesus’ prayer and from this message through Mary Magdalene, Thomas knew who his own God was. His God was not Jesus Christ, but his God was the God of Jesus Christ. Also his Father was the Father of Jesus Christ. Thus Thomas knew that Jesus had a God whom he worshiped, namely, his heavenly Father.

    52 How, then, could Thomas in an ecstasy of joy at seeing the resurrected Jesus for the first time burst out with an exclamation and speak to Jesus himself as being the one and only living, true God, the God whose name is Jehovah? How could Thomas, by what he spoke, mean that Jesus was himself “the only true God” or that Jesus was God in the Second Person of a Trinity? In view of what Thomas had heard from Jesus and had been told by Jesus, how can we read such a meaning into Thomas’ words: “My Lord and my God”?

    53 Jesus would have reproved Thomas if Jesus had understood that Thomas meant that he, Jesus, was “the only true God” whom Jesus had called “my God” and “my Father.” Certainly Jesus would not take a title away from God his Father or take away the unique position from God his Father. Since Jesus did not reprove Thomas as if addressing him in a wrong way, Jesus knew how to understand Thomas’ words, Scripturally. And so did the apostle John.

    54 John was there and heard Thomas exclaim: “My Lord and my God.” Did John say that the only thing for us to conclude from Thomas’ words was that Jesus was God, “the only true God” whose name is Jehovah? (Ps. 35:23, 24) Here would have been an excellent place for John to explain John 1:1 and say that Jesus Christ, who was the Word made flesh, was God himself, that he was “God the Son, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.” But is that the conclusion that John reached? Is that the conclusion to which John brings his readers? Listen to the conclusion that John wants us to reach:

    55 “Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: but these are written, that ye might believe.” That we might believe what? “That Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”—John 20:29-31, AV.

    56 In his life account of Jesus John wrote the things to persuade us to believe, not that Jesus is God, that Christ is God, or that Jesus is “God the Son,” but that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.” The trinitarians designedly twist things by saying “God the Son.” But we take John’s explanation the way that he words it, namely, “Christ, the Son of God.” We follow John to the same conclusion that he reached, that Jesus is the Son of the One whom Jesus calls “my Father” and “my God,” in this same twentieth chapter of John. Hence Thomas was not worshiping “God the Father” and “God the Son” at one and the same time as equals in a “triune God.”

    57 Thomas worshiped the same God whom Jesus Christ worshiped, namely, Jehovah God, the Father. So if Thomas addressed Jesus as “my God,” Thomas had to recognize Jesus’ Father as the God of a God, hence as a God higher than Jesus Christ, a God whom Jesus himself worshiped. Revelation 4:1-11 gives a symbolic description of this God, the “Lord God Almighty,” who sits upon the heavenly throne and who lives forever and ever; but the next chapter, Revelation 5:1-8, describes Jesus Christ as the Lamb of God who comes to the Lord God Almighty on his throne and takes a scroll out of God’s hand. This illustrates the meaning of Jesus’ words to Thomas and the other apostles: “I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (John 14:28, AV) Jesus thus recognized his Father as the Lord God Almighty, without an equal, greater than his Son.

  • Death to the Pixies
    Death to the Pixies

    This is basic Jewish agency which states to .." Honor the Agent as you would if it was the superior who sent him", as the ALT says:

    "The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

    The context is not worship, but rather delegation and imitation:

    "For neither does the Father judge anyone, _but_ He has given all judgment to the Son,"

    So basically, while the Son is imitating the works of the Father and doing the work that Father has given him to do, we are to honor the Son just as we would if it was the Father himself doing these acts, because ultimately it is, vs 30:

    "I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent me.:

    Kinda like when we were kids and our father would put our older brother in charge while he went away, we were to honor and obey that brother's (who had authority placed upon him) orders just like we would our Father's.

    Sorry, no trinity here gang :>)

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Undf'd:

    While it is possible (as the WT literature often does) to discuss the meaning of rare Hebrew or Greek words used in a limited number of contexts without a practice of the language, this becomes perilous when it comes to very frequent words such as conjunctions which happen in a variety of constructions every second sentence or so. Especially when you can mix up the adverbial and conjunctive uses of a word(hôs = "approximately" or "like, as"). Just think of all the wild conclusions a French who doesn't read English but uses English-French dictionaries could draw about those little English words using the same approach. S/he might imagine much more of a difference than there actually is between "do to X like you do to Y" and "do to X as you do to Y" if s/he wants so.

    That's why I pointed to a structural, not verbal, comparison, which doesn't really depend on lexical definitions.

    That being said, I do agree that this passage and the Johannine writings as a whole are potentially mind-opening for JWs. As I already told several times, in my first pre-JC meeting with the elders, when I was "charged" with "speaking too much about Jesus," and comparatively neglecting Jehovah, one text I quoted was 1 John 2:23: "No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also." This had all of them flipping their Bibles to check whether it was really there.

    (Disclaimer: I don't think that the Trinitarian doctrine exactly represents Johannine thinking either, but I do believe it is closer.)

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    "Death To The Pixies" said:

    This is basic Jewish agency which states to .." Honor the Agent as you would if it was the superior who sent him", as the ALT says:

    "The one not honoring the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

    The context is not worship, but rather delegation and imitation:

    "For neither does the Father judge anyone, _but_ He has given all judgment to the Son,"

    So basically, while the Son is imitating the works of the Father and doing the work that Father has given him to do, we are to honor the Son just as we would if it was the Father himself doing these acts, because ultimately it is, vs 30:

    "I can of my own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who hath sent me.:

    Kinda like when we were kids and our father would put our older brother in charge while he went away, we were to honor and obey that brother's (who had authority placed upon him) orders just like we would our Father's.

    Sorry, no trinity here gang :>)
    ----------------------------------------------------------

    I agree with you that the Jews believed that a representative sent by someone should be honored like (but NOT necessarily to the same degree) you would treat the person who sent the representative. Jesus Christ Himself taught this:

    Matthew 10:40-42 (ESV): "Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. The one who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and the one who receives a righteous person because he is a righteous person will receive a righteous person's reward. And whoever gives one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he will by no means lose his reward."

    Matthew 18:5 (ESV): "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me,

    Mark 9:37 (ESV): "Whoever receives one such child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me, receives not me but him who sent me."

    Luke 9:48 (ESV): and said to them, "Whoever receives this child in my name receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. For he who is least among you all is the one who is great."

    John 13:20 (ESV): Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

    But, I disagree with you when you say that the context of John 5:23 is not discussing worship.

    How do people "HONOR" God? They honor Him by worshiping Him, do they not?

    John 4:23-24 (ESV): But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

    How can people honor God without worshiping Him? (See Revelation 4:11; Revelation 7:12; 1 Timothy 1:17). How can you separate honor from worship when you are discussing God Almighty? Giving honor and glory to God is part of your WORSHIP of God.

    The Greek word for "HONOR" in John 5:23 is "TIMAO". Here is the Strong's definition:

    G5091
    t?µa´?
    timao¯
    tim-ah'-o
    From G5093; to prize, that is, fix a valuation upon; by implication to revere: - honour, value.
    ___________________________________________________________

    Here is the Thayer's definition:

    G5091
    t?µa´?
    timao¯
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to estimate, fix the value
    1a) for the value of something belonging to one’s self
    2) to honour, to have in honour, to revere, venerate
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5093
    ___________________________________________________________

    So, how would one "estimate" or "fix the value" of God Almighty Himself? Would people not value and estimate God so much that the honor must become WORSHIP?

    Now look at an extremely important Old Testament Scripture in Isaiah:

    Isaiah 42:8 (ESV): I am the LORD; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.

    Isaiah 42:8 (Good News Bible): "I alone am the LORD your God. No other god may share my glory; I will not let idols share my praise.

    The Hebrew word for "GLORY" in Isaiah 42:8 is "KABOD." Here is Strong's definition:

    H3519
    ka^bo^d ka^bo^d
    kaw-bode', kaw-bode'
    From H3513; properly weight; but only figuratively in a good sense, splendor or copiousness: - glorious (-ly), glory, honour (-able).
    _________________________________________________________

    Here is Brown-Driver-Briggs' definition:

    H3519
    ka^bo^d
    BDB Definition:
    1) glory, honour, glorious, abundance
    1a) abundance, riches
    1b) honour, splendour, glory
    1c) honour, dignity
    1d) honour, reputation
    1e) honour, reverence, glory
    1f) glory
    Part of Speech: noun masculine
    A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H3513
    ________________________________________________________

    So, Isaiah 42:8 tells us that Jehovah God Almighty will never share His own glory (or honor) with another.

    Here are some more verses which reinforce this teaching:

    Isaiah 48:11 (GNB): What I do is done for my own sake -- I will not let my name be dishonored or let anyone else share the glory that should be mine and mine alone."

    Exodus 20:3 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): You shall have no other gods beside Me.

    Exodus 22:20 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): He that sacrifices to any gods but to the Lord alone, shall be destroyed by death.

    Exodus 34:14 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): For you shall not worship strange gods, for the Lord God, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God;

    Deuteronomy 5:7 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): You shall have no other gods before Me.

    Deuteronomy 6:13-15 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): You shall fear the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve; and you shall cleave to Him, and by His name you shall swear. Go not after other gods, of the gods of the nations round about you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God, lest the Lord your God be very angry with you, and destroy you from off the face of the earth.

    Deuteronomy 7:4 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): For he will draw away your son from Me, and he will serve other gods; and the Lord will be very angry with you, and will soon utterly destroy you.

    Deuteronomy 8:19 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): And it shall come to pass, that if you do at all forget the Lord your God, and should go after other gods, and serve them, and worship them, I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you shall surely perish!

    Deuteronomy 13:1-18 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): And if there arise within you a prophet, or one who dreams a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which you know not; you shall not hearken to the words of that prophet, or the dreamer of that dream, because the Lord your God is testing you, to see whether you love your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall follow the Lord your God, and fear Him, and you shall hear His voice, and attach yourselves to Him. And that prophet or that dreamer of a dream shall die; for he has spoken to make you err from the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, who redeemed you from bondage, to thrust you out of the way which the Lord your God commanded you to walk in. So shall you abolish the evil from among you. And if your brother by your father or mother, or your son, or daughter, or your wife in your bosom, or friend who is equal to your own soul, entreat you secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which neither you nor your fathers have known, of the gods of the nations that are round about you, who are near you or at a distance from you, from one end of the earth to the other; you shall not consent to him, neither shall you hearken to him; and your eye shall not spare him, you shall feel no regret for him, neither shall you at all protect him: you shall surely report concerning him, and your hands shall be upon him among the first to slay him, and the hands of all the people at the last. And they shall stone him with stones, and he shall die, because he sought to draw you away from the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall not again do according to this evil thing among you. And if in one of your cities which the Lord God gives you to dwell in, you shall hear men saying, Evil men have gone out from you, and have caused all the inhabitants of their land to fall away, saying, Let us go and worship other gods, whom you knew not, then you shall inquire and ask, and search diligently, and behold, if the thing is clearly true, and this abomination has taken place among you, you shall utterly destroy all the inhabitants of that land with the edge of the sword; you shall solemnly curse it, and all things in it. And all its spoils you shall gather into its public ways, and you shall burn the city with fire, and all its spoils publicly before the Lord your God; and it shall be uninhabited forever, it shall not be built again. And none of the cursed things shall cleave to your hand, that the Lord may turn from His fierce anger, and show you mercy, and pity you, and multiply you, as He swore to your fathers; if you will hear the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments, all that I charge you this day, to do that which is good and pleasing before the Lord your God.

    So, according to Deuteronomy Chapter 13, if Jesus was another, different god besides the Only True God, Jehovah, then Jesus was a false god, a false prophet, who should have been stoned to death by the Jews for promoting false worship.

    Deuteronomy 17:2-5 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): And if there should be found in any of your cities which the Lord your God gives you, a man or a woman who shall do that which is evil before the Lord your God, so as to transgress His covenant, and they should go and serve other gods, and worship them, the sun, or the moon, or any of the host of heaven, which He commanded you not to do, and it be told you, and you shall have inquired diligently, and behold, the thing really took place, this abomination has been done in Israel; then shall you bring out that man, or that woman, and you shall stone them with stones, and they shall die.

    Deuteronomy 18:20 (Complete Apostles' Bible Septuagint Translation): But whichever prophet that shall impiously speak in My name a word which I have not commanded him to speak, and whosoever shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.

    Deuteronomy 32:16-21: They provoked Me to anger with strange gods; with their abominations they bitterly angered Me. They sacrificed to demons, and not to God; to gods whom they knew not: new and fresh gods came in, whom their fathers knew not. You have forsaken God that begot you, and forgotten God who feeds you. And the Lord saw, and was jealous; and was provoked by the anger of His sons and daughters, and said, I will turn away My face from them, and will show what shall happen to them in the last days; for it is a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faith. They have provoked Me to jealousy by that which is not God, they have exasperated Me with their idols; and I will provoke them to jealousy with them that are not a nation, I will anger them with a nation void of understanding.

    So, as you can see from all of the above Scriptures, God Almighty will tolerate absolutely NO OTHER gods, and He will share His glory and honor with NO ONE ELSE.

    Also, the Jews of Jesus' day believed that GOD ALONE had certain attributes and authority and that He would NEVER delegate or share these with another.

    Here are some of the things the Jews believed ONLY God could do:

    1:) Forgive sins committed against God. (Mark 2:5-7)

    2:) Have complete authority over the Sabbath. (John 5:17-18)

    3:) Use the name/title "I AM" and to exist for all eternity (John 8:58-59).

    4:) Be the Final Judge. (John 5:22-24)

    5:) Grant eternal life and have the power to raise the dead. (John 5:21)

    The Jews also believed that God had absolutely NO equal, no other god was with Him. Jesus agreed with this teaching as well. (See Mark 12:28-34, John 5:18, John 10:30-33, Matthew 4:10). The problem was that the Jews believed God was only One Person -- The Father.

    Let us look very closely at the context of John 5:23, starting with John 5:16:

    John 5:16 (ESV): And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.

    First, the Jews were persecuting Christ for performing a miracle ("working") on the Sabbath Day.

    John 5:17 (ESV): But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working."

    Or, as the New Living Translation says:

    But Jesus replied, “My Father is always working, and so am I.”

    And, the New Century Version says this:

    But Jesus said to them, “My Father never stops working, and so I keep working, too.”

    So, Jesus claimed that He had the same rights as God and EQUAL authority to work on the Sabbath with His Father, God. He claimed that He was not bound by the Sabbath just as God is not bound by the Sabbath.

    He also claimed to be "working" in the same way that the Father is always working.

    John 5:18 (ESV): This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

    The Jews then sought to kill Jesus for BLASPHEMY because, not only did He work on the Sabbath, but He claimed to be ABOVE the Sabbath and had EQUAL authority over the Sabbath with The Father, AND because He called God HIS OWN Father in a unique way.

    The phrase "son of man" meant that you were a man. The phrase "sons of the prophets" meant that you were of the order or rank of a prophet. So, the way Jesus was using the phrase "Son of God" meant that Jesus was claiming to be equal to God, that He was God.

    So, the context (John 5:16-18) leading up to John 5:23 shows that Jesus has:

    1:) Claimed equal authority over the Sabbath with The Father.
    2:) Claimed to be equal to God by calling God His Own Father.

    John 5:19 (ESV): So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

    The Jews believed that only One Person, The Father, was God. So in John 5:19, Jesus is trying to show that He is NOT claiming to be ANOTHER, DIFFERENT God, but that He is One with The Father.

    John 5:20 (ESV): For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. And greater works than these will he show him, so that you may marvel.

    Jesus said that The Son knows ALL that The Father does.

    John 5:21 (ESV): For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will.

    Jesus here claims that He has EQUAL power and EQUAL authority to raise the dead the same way that The Father does, and that The Son chooses to raise up whoever HE WILLS. Jesus was claiming that HE is the One who chooses whom to save and whom to give eternal life to.

    John 5:22 (ESV): The Father judges no one, but has given all judgment to the Son,

    The Jews believed that only God The Father was the Final Judge, so Jesus is trying to show that He is equal to God by saying that The Father has given all judgment to The Son.

    John 5:23 (ESV): that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    Strong's and Thayer's Greek dictionaries both say that the Greek word used for "JUST AS" in John 5:23 ("KATHOS") means "ACCORDING AS" or "JUST LIKE" or "TO THE SAME DEGREE."

    No where in the Bible does it ever say to honor a created representative of God to the same degree or according as you honor God. In fact, the Bible CONDEMNS honoring angelic representatives of God to the same degree or according as you honor God:

    Revelation 19:9-10 (ESV): And the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb." And he said to me, "These are the true words of God." Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    Revelation 22:8-9 (ESV): I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

    Also, the Apostle Peter was an ambassador for God on earth and was a leader of God's church, but it was idolatry to honor him to the same degree as you honor God:

    Acts 10:25-26 (ESV): When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, "Stand up; I too am a man."

    Bottom line, in John Chapter 5:

    1:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying He had equal authority and rights over the Sabbath.
    2:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying He was doing the same type of "works" as His Father does.
    3:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying that God was HIS OWN Father in a unique way.
    4:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying He had equal authority and rights to give eternal life to whomever He chooses.
    5:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying He had equal authority and rights to judge.
    6:) Jesus claimed to be equal to God The Father by saying He must be honored to the same degree as The Father is honored, and if you do not honor Him to the same degree you are not honoring The Father at all.

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Narkissos said:

    Undf'd:

    While it is possible (as the WT literature often does) to discuss the meaning of rare Hebrew or Greek words used in a limited number of contexts without a practice of the language, this becomes perilous when it comes to very frequent words such as conjunctions which happen in a variety of constructions every second sentence or so. Especially when you can mix up the adverbial and conjunctive uses of a word(hôs = "approximately" or "like, as"). Just think of all the wild conclusions a French who doesn't read English but uses English-French dictionaries could draw about those little English words using the same approach. S/he might imagine much more of a difference than there actually is between "do to X like you do to Y" and "do to X as you do to Y" if s/he wants so.

    That's why I pointed to a structural, not verbal, comparison, which doesn't really depend on lexical definitions.

    That being said, I do agree that this passage and the Johannine writings as a whole are potentially mind-opening for JWs. As I already told several times, in my first pre-JC meeting with the elders, when I was "charged" with "speaking too much about Jesus," and comparatively neglecting Jehovah, one text I quoted was 1 John 2:23: "No one who denies the Son has the Father; everyone who confesses the Son has the Father also." This had all of them flipping their Bibles to check whether it was really there.

    (Disclaimer: I don't think that the Trinitarian doctrine exactly represents Johannine thinking either, but I do believe it is closer.)

    Thank you for your comments, Narkissos. I agree that one should be very careful when trying to explain or interpret "very frequent words such as conjunctions which happen in a variety of constructions every second sentence or so."

    However, let's look at how the phrase "just as" (irregardless of which Greek word) is used in John Chapter 5 itself:

    John 5:21 (NWT): For just as the Father raises the dead up and makes them alive, so the Son also makes those alive whom he wants to.

    John 5:23 (NWT): in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.

    John 5:26 (NWT): For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

    John 5:30 (NWT): I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.

    It appears to me that in each instance in John Chapter 5, the phrase "just as" means "to the same degree" or "according as," or "the same as."

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