Wow undisfellowshipped that's a lot of valuable research. I'm going to print it out and share bit bit with my other half.
Thanku very much.
JW's and John 5:23
by UnDisfellowshipped 50 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
Just a short comment fwiw.
Imo the "equality" or "oneness" of the Father and Son in GJohn are clearly stated, but they must be qualified:
(1) The Son is equal to, or one with, the Father through complete dependency (e.g. 5:30, which Undf'd quoted). This is a deep paradox, which JWs miss by reasoning that derived and dependent equality is not equality.
(2) This equal yet dependent oneness doesn't stop at the Son, but extends to the believers (cf. chapter 17).
This broader Johannine picture is often lost in purely Christological/Trinitarian debate.
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Forscher
You hit upon one of those "little things" which kind of rolled around in the back of my mind for many years.
Setting aside the Trinity question, which I don't think was the intent of the thread, we all know that the priorities of the individual witness are supposed to be:
- The organization
- Jehovah God
- Jesus Christ (when he can be invoked to say "we are Christians")
John 5:23 and others already mentioned kind of set that order on its head and that always bothered me. Personally, although I find the Trinity doctrine lacking in credence, I have no problem with giving Jesus equal honor with his father if that is what the scriptures say we should. I certainly don't have the problem that many have had through the years of according two "gods" honor as in my opinion he who holds the ultimate power can certainly elevate another to equal status if he darn well wants to. And he certainly doesn't need my permission to do so! When I think of it, it may well be the pride of men who seem to think they know better than he which gave us this whole mess of the Trinity doctrine to begin with.
The problem the Jews had with Jesus' claims no doubt stemmed their from understanding of his claim of sonship. In ancient times that may well been tatamount to claiming the firstborn's special position and double inheritence of all things. Can one imagine the proud Pharisees standing by while somebody else claimed what they likely saw as their own right to power? And especially one from so lowly position as a carpenter's son? not likely! Besides, we need to keep in mind that all this talk of "equality with God" was being made by Jesus' enemies, men who were already looking for any pretext they could find to kill him. That gives us the measure of the reliability of their words when attempting to determine the truth of the matter.
Still, We have John 5:23, Philipians 2:9-11, and others which indicate that God wills that we give his son equal, or nearly equal honor with him and the WTBTS's denial of that always had me wondering. But then, where do we find that the organization should be accorded the kind of status the WTBTS insists upon in God's word? Despite all the GB's sophistry in the matter I haven't found it yet. It is certainly something to think about. thanks for the topic.
Forscher
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UnDisfellowshipped
Thank you Forscher, Narkissos, and everyone else for your comments. I do appreciate seeing and understanding other people's beliefs.
I figured I would post some final Scriptures on this thread about honoring The Son:
Luke 14:26-27 (NLT): “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple.
2 Peter 3:18 (ESV): But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity.Amen.
2 Timothy 4:18 (ESV): The Lord will rescue me from every evil deed and bring me safely into his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory forever and ever.Amen.
1 Peter 3:15 (ESV): but in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you;
Jude 1:25 (ESV): to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Colossians 3:4 (ESV): When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
Hebrews 1:6 (ESV): And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."
Psalm 2:12 (ESV): Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
Philippians 2:5-11 (ESV): Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Philippians 3:7-12 (ESV): But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own.
Ephesians 1:20-23 (ESV): that he worked in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And he put all things under his feet and gave him as head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
Romans 14:6-9 (ESV): The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
Colossians 3:15-17 (ESV): And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 (ESV): For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
Galatians 2:20 (ESV): I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
1 John 2:23 (ESV): No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also.
2 John 1:9 (ESV): Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
Romans 9:5 (ESV): To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
John 12:26 (ESV): If anyone serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there will my servant be also. If anyone serves me, the Father will honor him.
John 8:50 (ESV): Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge.
John 8:54 (ESV): Jesus answered, "If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, 'He is our God.'
John 11:4 (ESV): But when Jesus heard it he said, "This illness does not lead to death. It is for the glory of God, so that the Son of God may be glorified through it."
John 13:31-32 (ESV): When he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once.
John 14:13-14 (ESV): Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
John 16:13-14 (ESV): When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
John 17:1-5 (ESV): When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Romans 14:18 (ESV): Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
Matthew 24:30 (ESV): Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 25:31 (ESV): "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
Luke 19:37-40 (ESV): As he was drawing near--already on the way down the Mount of Olives--the whole multitude of his disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen, saying, "Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!" And some of the Pharisees in the crowd said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples." He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."
John 1:14, 18 (ESV): And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. [...] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
John 12:41 (ESV): Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.
Romans 16:27 (ESV): to the only wise God be glory forevermore through Jesus Christ! Amen.
1 Corinthians 2:8 (ESV): None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2 Corinthians 4:4-6 (ESV): In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:19-29 (ESV): for I know that through your prayers andthe help ofthe Spirit of Jesus Christ this will turn out for my deliverance, as it is my eager expectation and hope that I will not be at all ashamed, but that with full courage now as always Christ will be honored in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain and continue with you all, for your progress and joy in the faith, so that in me you may have ample cause to glory in Christ Jesus, because of my coming to you again. Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you are standing firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel, and not frightened in anything by your opponents. This is a clear sign to them of their destruction, but of your salvation, and that from God. For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
Hebrews 13:20-21 (ESV): Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you with everything good that you may do his will, working in us that which is pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:5-6 (ESV): and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:8-14 (ESV): And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth." Then I looked, and I heard around the throne and the living creatures and the elders the voice of many angels, numbering myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped.
Revelation 7:9-10 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
Revelation 21:22-23 (ESV): And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Revelation 21:27 (ESV): But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:1, 3 (ESV): Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb [...] No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
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JH
It means to honor the son the way he should be honored, like the 2nd most important person in the universe, not more nor less...
And to honor the father is to honor him, like we should honor the most important person in the universe....not less.
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UnDisfellowshipped
Hi JH,
But where do you show the Scripture support for those claims?
Have you read Revelation Chapter 5 which I posted above? In that chapter, God and the Lamb are worshiped equally. There is no separating the glory, honor, praise, blessing, power, and riches given to God and the Lamb. They are both given the EXACT same glory, honor, and worship.
Here it is again in case you missed it (this time from the Good News Bible):
Revelation 5:8 (GNB):
As he did so, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each had a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of God's people.Revelation 5:9 (GNB):
They sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to break open its seals. For you were killed, and by your sacrificial death you bought for God people from every tribe, language, nation, and race.Revelation 5:10 (GNB):
You have made them a kingdom of priests to serve our God, and they shall rule on earth."Revelation 5:11 (GNB):
Again I looked, and I heard angels, thousands and millions of them! They stood around the throne, the four living creatures, and the elders,Revelation 5:12 (GNB):
and sang in a loud voice: "The Lamb who was killed is worthy to receive power, wealth, wisdom, and strength, honor, glory, and praise!"Revelation 5:13 (GNB):
And I heard every creature in heaven, on earth, in the world below, and in the sea---all living beings in the universe---and they were singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb, be praise and honor, glory and might, forever and ever!"Revelation 5:14 (GNB):
The four living creatures answered, "Amen!" And the elders fell down and worshiped. -
Death to the Pixies
I agree with you that the Jews believed that a representative sent by someone should be honored like (but NOT necessarily to the same degree) you would treat the person who sent the representative. Jesus Christ Himself taught this:
Reply: You wrote a lot, much of which I do not care to read thru (sorry too much work:>)), but your point is understood. Just a couple observation from me:
1.) "Like", "Just as" I think you are making an issue here that does not exist. It is the authority we are to "honor" (not worship) like the Father "to the same degree", it is not a nature discussion in John ch. 5. "Worship" does not exist here, at least from the context of this verse. I truly believe if you read this outside of Trinitarian a priori assumption you will see this. I Your point becomes increasingly strained when we realize there are varying degress of "proskyneo" (greek for worship) that can be rightfully applied to God's agents. (1 Chron. 29:20)
2.)I have no problem seeing "equality" in John 5:18-9 (if that is the correct understanding, it is debate-able and I leave room for both possibilities) but the equality would clearly be in a legal sense given the context, not an ontological one. Read Jesus' response in vs 19:
Then answered Jesus, and said to them, Verily, verily, I say to you, The Son can do nothing by himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for whatever things he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
If we take this as having anything other than legality (ie not nature) in view you have an inconsistent exegesis of this chapter, in which you must switch between the supposed divine and human natures of Jesus. For instance, vs. 18 would apply to his divine, vs 19 to his human, 23- divine, 26-human etc..etc..
Agents, even of God, are legally equivalent to God . The angel in Exodus 23:20-21 even had YHWHs name within him, so for legal purpses he was YHWH..
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Narkissos
DttP
Just because GJohn (like the Synoptic Gospels) uses the metaphor of legal agency it doesn't follow that what he means pertains to the field of law -- no more than 3:8 is really about meteorology or transportation.
Imo if "John" has no ontological interest then nobody has (cf. his characteristic use of eimi, subtly distinguished from ginomai, in the Prologue, the egô eimi, etc.). But his is not a static ontology -- rather a dynamic one implying procession / generation / mission / revelation and all the way back to the Father along with the elect. To express the first movement (the "exhale" moment in the great breath of the Father, if you will) the metaphor of legal agency is helpful, but what is meant is much more than legal. And it is just one metaphor among many -- sowing / dissemination and harvest / gathering for instance, for just the same "cycle".
It is an "ontological choregraphy". The sense is not in stopping the movement to "identify" the characters but in the dance itself. Because the course of the show has been lost (mostly due to the split between "Orthodox" and "Gnostics") we are left with endless discussions (dis-course) about a static identity (pleonasm?) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, distinction between "ontological" and "economical" trinities, and last but not least hypostatic union (both god and man) which, as popularised, results in the absurdity of asking "who's speaking, god or man?" at every one of Jesus' sentences. But the JW version (which practically means neither god nor man) is no less static and even more shallow if you ask me.
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Death to the Pixies
Imo if "John" has no ontological interest then nobody has (cf. his characteristic use of eimi, subtly distinguished from ginomai, in the Prologue, the egô eimi, etc.). But his is not a static ontology -- rather a dynamic one implying procession / generation / mission / revelation and all the way back to the Father along with the elect. To express the first movement (the "exhale" moment in the great breath of the Father, if you will) the metaphor of legal agency is helpful, but what is meant is much more than legal. And it is just one metaphor among many -- sowing / dissemination and harvest / gathering for instance, for just the same "cycle".
Reply: I am limiting my words to John 5 and "honor the Son as the father", I believe contextually this is limited to the authority given to Jesus over the resurrection, judgement. You know, again this principle," while the Son is doing the works of the Father, honor him as if it was the Father himself doing these works"... I guess his nature would not have to be excluded necessarily, it is just not what John has in mind here in his teaching. I do not see nature being in view in this phrase.
I believe you mean to say that because the Son proceeds or is generated from the Father that they are equal because of this..but also the elect are equal as well? Forgive me if I misunderstood. I do not believe John does not discuss the ontological relationship between God and Son (eg, John 1:1, jhn 14:28). just not at John 5, where legal agency seems quite real. I see vs. 23 discussing authority, the type of authority that one who spoke for God would have, an equal authority. Is it a metaphor? I am not sure what you mean here or why it would change what I said.
But the JW version (which practically means neither god nor man) is no less static and even more shallow if you ask me.
Reply: Chhh, but who asked you! :>) What you call "ontological choreography" would still include the idea, that Jesus on his own , cannot "raise the dead" (John 5) "judge man" (vs. 28) or even "have life in himself" (5:26) or, be able to live at all (John 6:57). You can speculate endlessly what John 1:1 means exactly, but it would not erase the whole of John's subordination, by nature. Would you not agree?
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Apostate Kate
John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
John 5:19 Jesus therefore answered them, "Most assuredly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things he does, these the Son also does likewise.
.." When it is said that he CAN do nothing OF HIMSELF, it is meant that such is the union subsisting between the Father and the Son that he can do nothing independently or separate from the Father" Barnes
If Jesus was just a man, or a recycled angel, or a created being of any kind, he COULD have acted on his own. The Bible says Jesus could do nothing separate from God, because He was of God.
One thing people often misunderstand and the JWs capitalized on is the erroneous view that all trinitarians are modalists.
Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. The Holy Spirit is not some Star Wars "Active Force" but is God the Holy Spirit.
The Creator of the universe is more than a human mind is capable of comprehension. That facts stand that the Bible states Jesus is to be worshipped, that He is worthy of our worship and praise. Whether we believe it or not, it does state that.
There has been no other experience in all of my life that compares to the deep joy and peace that Jesus gives me when I sing praises to Him, worship Him, dedicate my every morning to Him..nothing like it in this world.