Out of Mythic into Rational consciousness, the EX-JW Journey

by jst2laws 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  OUTLAW

  Cool thread..As JW`s we were taught,we were right..We needed to be right at all costs..If your need is to be right,you will be blind to truth.....I don`t need to be right,I need to know the truth...OUTLAW
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  frankiespeakin

  HS,

  Quantum Mechanics, which I suppose deals more with the scientific and less with the philosophical aspects of the 'quantum' is a beast that is much easier to grapple with than its Physical cousin, despite the controversies that exist within some of its intangible notions.

  Many of the implication that can be drawn from the quantum theory, such as, the princible of uncertainty,, electrons being waves of probability,, the intereaction of the observed and observer, and the entanglement of photons with faster than the speed of light or instantaneous comunication, lead one down the road of philosophical aspects of these implications. Many feel the this is the junction where science meets with or explains spirituality, perhaps that is why many who have degrees in Physics turn very philisophical.

  The fact that the observer effects the observed reminds me of the question: If a tree crashes (or falls) in the forest and nobody(or entity) is there to hear it does it make a noise?

  And so if the universe exist and no conscious being is there to experience it would it exist? or if no one is observing something, be it anything did it really happen or exist.
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  hillary_step

  Frankie,

  Many of the implication that can be drawn from the quantum theory, such as, the princible of uncertainty,, electrons being waves of probability,, the intereaction of the observed and observer, and the entanglement of photons with faster than the speed of light or instantaneous comunication, lead one down the road of philosophical aspects of these implications. Many feel the this is the junction where science meets with or explains spirituality, perhaps that is why many who have degrees in Physics turn very philisophical.

  Yes, I understand this. What I am trying to distinguish is where philosophy ends and religion begins. Philosophy does as part of its discipline encompass the metaphysical, however the concept of a Quantum religion is quite something else.

  As to spirituality, well it will always be as personal as an individual. LT's idea of who God is likely to be very different from the person sitting next to him in his church, and it is at this juncture that I believe that Quantum Physics loses its way. This is where it becomes imho more of a New Age Religion than a philosophical vision that tests the nature of the tangible.

  At present we have reached the limits of what can be measurable scientifically, but tomorrow may change this and thus the quantum interpretation must be adjusted. Philosophy can adjust, but religion has to change. In her book, Janeen Hunt posits the argument that many physicists who find themselves becoming 'spiritual' through their studies are actually religionists, or reluctant disbelievers, such as myself, who have outgrown the myth but not the mystery. I think that she has a point.

  Might I ask have you switched 'faith', as it were?

  HS
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  frankiespeakin

  HS,

  At present I have no faith in any religious type of teachings, but through my reading of science, psycholgy, and the mystical I find myself foot loose and fancy free, with a healthy dose of skepticism of those who dogmatically claim to know the "Truth" of existance. I do find myself leaning towards this concusion: we are everything and everything is us, this is based more or less on what I have read on the subject of Quantum theory, which tends toward the implication that the universe is non local, and that time, and space are all imaginary(or mind interpetations) just as say the color red is just a mind interpetation, for red is just a light frequency and it is our mind is what makes it appear red, so red only exist in the mind and my red maybe different from what your the red in your mind. The world is what the mind makes it up to be. I hope that explains where my faith is right now.
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  frankiespeakin

  HS,

  Yes, I understand this. What I am trying to distinguish is where philosophy ends and religion begins. Philosophy does as part of its discipline encompass the metaphysical, however the concept of a Quantum religion is quite something else.

  To me the word religion means a set of doctrine, and aceptance of those doctrine as true (thus beleiving and belonging to a religion) and philosophy to me on the other hand means to question and speculate through deduction, with room for more debate ( iguess there are other more specific meanings of the word like greek philosophy and so forth) so in that case I don't think they ever will meet. One is ridged the other speculative at least that is my view of the two words or the way I usually use it.

  I do think that quantum theory leads us to some explination of metaphysical and philosophical ideas, or at least plausible explinations, anyway I enjoy the mystery, and discussing them either in debate form or just the pleasure of entertaining different approaches of those that have thought rather deeply about subject but find it rather boring listening or talking to those strictly "rational materialist" or "dogmatic religionist".
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  jst2laws

  HS I I have to be careful with the topic quantum physics because I tend to become a little evangelistic. I was an atheist (still am if I have to believe in a sky daddy) when quantum mechanics made my head spin with its matter of fact discoveries that touched my spiritual side. The point I made on another thread was actually a quote from a theoretical physicist who made a basic point about connectivity of all things and remarked on how it might affect us. My interpretation of this reality is once we realize we are all "connected" how can we not love each other. Frankiespeakin, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about and hope you interpret the overall meaning of the experiments the same. Steve
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  Narkissos

  once we realize we are all "connected" how can we not love each other

  For a moment I was thinking of the cat preaching that to the mouse. Or the other way around.

  As far as philosophical (or even religious) implications (not scientific accuracy) are concerned, is it all that different from ancient myths, such as living beings made from the dust of the earth and the breath of the gods?

  Connection is one side of the coin. Side One, the side of oneness. The other side is the side of the Other -- alterity, multiple, involving differentiation, competition, structural antagonism and power struggle. Being (whatever that means) encompasses both in an irreducible, painful, tension.
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  frankiespeakin

  Jst,

  I do think there is a pure intelligence untainted by subjectivity, biased leanings, a person can call it "god", "consciousness" "being" "spirit", "nothingness" or any other mythic, or sybolic term. It is all just terms that mean different things to different persons. If as Quantum Physics seems to indicate that all thing are connected, and time and space are just illusions, then reality may mean that every thing is just one thing or even paradoxically a non-thing. It does take effort and time to wrap ones mind around the the paradoxical nature of quantum physics even A. Einstien seems to have faught tooth and nail to try and disprove it while he was alive, but recent experiments have shown quantum is a much more accurate than AE's theory of relativity which in effect was the first step out of Clasical Newtonian Physics into the world of Quantum.
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  frankiespeakin

  Jst,

  My interpretation of this reality is once we realize we are all "connected" how can we not love each other.

  Good point, but I think there are different levels of realization, the more profound and longer the realization if felt then yes. Just a acknowledgenment as to the reasonableness of how it sound, will produce some feeling of love and closeness, the more profound the realization then the more connected and love we feel.

  You do hit on a point though that makes me think, about wars and man cruelty towards his fellow man, and some times I think it may stem from a lack of feeling connected to the rest of the human race and all life on our planet, definitely something of a new paradigm for the human species think about seriously.
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  V

  Thank you for such an intellegent discussion!

  The quantum mechanics conversation is leading to the perfect axis between spirituality and science. The concept that we are all "one" is reflected in Christianity, Buddhism and Hinduism.

  If this intersection is true then both sides, religion and science, have a lot of baggage to shed.

  "Einstein said that scientific research is the only thing that qualifies as a religion. If religion claims to deal with the absolute and universal, then what could be more absolute and universal than the things revealed through mathematics and physics? But the systems that are called religions, what do they concern themselves with? Words a person utters--which god he thinks he talks to...Trivial things, things that concern with the behavior of people. There's nothing absolute or universal about that!" (from The Proteus Operation)