jst2laws that was excellent way of assessing it. Which puts into perspective even JW most cherrised expression "presnt truth" which changes as collective consciousness of dubs finally catches up with the world at large so 'brains' in Croocklyn have to invent something new to keep R&F faithful and occupied. But in reality to any sane person that should indicate they are not inspired as they claim to be otherwise they'd skip all those levels all the way to the top and would be saying ultimate truths and rest of us would be caching up to them, not other way arround.
Out of Mythic into Rational consciousness, the EX-JW Journey
by jst2laws 123 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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frankiespeakin
Nark,
That study on colour, is eye opening and gives us a lot to think about in the theme of this thread about conciousness. Thanks for sharing it with our discussion.
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jst2laws
Didier,
When you "meet Ross" can I come too? I have met Ross, but it would be fun to see both of you. I can do this, really!HS,
LOL. We'll have to compare our colour-books when I meet Ross
I haven't had a chance to look at this thread all week-end, and now look what has happened. I hope you all (especially HS, Ross, Didier, and FrankieS) will wait on me to get back to this and respond appropriately
Steve
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Sunnygal41
IMHO quantum physics has a direct bearing on interior design, just as entanglement theory has a direct bearing on the modern design of deckchairs
I totally agree with you, Ross. They are definitely interchangeable.
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jst2laws
Narkissos,
Mysticism, as art, is sitting on the shore of language, facing the waves of the unnamed
You are the poet, dude. And the true mystic might applaud the phrase "facing the waves of the unnamed". I'm told the mystic gets into trouble when trying to apply words to his ineffable experience. FrankieS,
color does not really exist concretely in light and is only a mind interpetation. Light comes in a big spectrum of frequency, and only a very small portion of it has the mind assigned visible interpetation to, we are essentially blind to the rest, we only know of them through instruments we have made.We can't even imagine how the world would appear to us if we were able to see the whole spectrum of lightwave frequency, and the type of colors or visual sensations the mind would have to some how invent to make a picture in our imagination. I think if you think about these thing for a while you start see how our view of the world is not that accurate, and the mind effort to correlate the data from the 5 senses, to which it makes a picture in our imagination, which is not really accurated in its entirety. So as with the color red, and so much of or world view I think it correct to say it is "illusion" being that it come from mind interpretation.
Good point about color. It is a WAVE, (perhaps HS's green) that our eye can perceive ONLY by the LENGTH OF THE WAVE (because the photon is NOT a partical, it's a wave, and has no mass), which is converted to an electro/chemical signal sent to the brain which INTERPRETS this signal to an image. The image is our interpretation of input only remotely resembling what produced it resulting in our perception of what we imagine to be "out there". But is it an illusion? Since it is consistent, shared by fellow observers, and it is the only reality we know, it will not be taken easily as an illusion. Perhaps if we say the reality is not made up of the stuff we perceive it to be, it may fit the definition of an illusion' but will still raise controversy. BTW, for fun I like to refer to the objects in the objective reality as "STUFF" Borrowing from George Carlin, stuff is really important to us humans. It's our stuff, our only stuff, and it is the important components of our world. In my mythic level, redneck reality my world consists of STUFF such as: "My world is my pickup truck, my truck is a GMC, my truck is RED. God bless America and don't mess with my stuff." How's that Narcissos for a mythic level poetic expression of our shared reality. I'm counting on you to improve on it. HS, You have raised some valid issues. I have not read that book but if you will defend it's position I'm sure we can discuss it here. Steve
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AuldSoul
A thoroughly enjoyable discussion, IMO.
Just trying to toss a stone into this stream of consciousness and see whether the whirlpools will still insist on being whirlpools: Objectively, what is energy?
All matter is a manifestation of something we don't objectively understand in any sense that can be communicated with any consistent levels of agreement among the sciences; all that we call "stuff" is an expression of a basis we understand in a grossly imperfect way at best.
Is energy a thing, a force, a thought? Does it exist everywhere? At all? Is it a product of something else, or that which produces all, or that from which all is produced?
As Steve mentioned, a photon has no mass. If it has no mass it is not a particle. Does a "thing" exist as a thing if it can only be detected by its influence on other things? Are waves forces? Are forces things?
If energy, waves, and forces aren't objectively real, are they real? If so, in what sense?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
jst2laws
Auldsoul,
Are you energy only? I think not. You are an Auldsoul, much more than mindless energy. Are you not what we associate with "mind": THOUGHT! At least? . . .
Seriously, physicist lump forces (what they define as energy at work) into their world of physics (STUFF) just because it ACTS on stuff. I'm wondering philosophically if this is where quantum physics will eventually have to separate itself from the study of stuff (objective reality) and face the fact that energy is actually beyond our space/time continuum. Perhaps it should be the beginning of a new science that acknowledges that philosophical/spiritual/metaphysical/non-local effects are already an accepted part of our reality. Yeah, this is what makes HS puke. But I'm going to get to a response for you, if you are still there.
JamesThomas,
I'm working on a response for you too but I have to go to a meeting (NO, NOT AT THE KH). I will get back later this evening, I hope.
Steve
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toreador
On the color perspective. I happen to match colors for a living, along with my significant other. We both see colors amazingly the same way. We almost 100 percent of the time agree on what color to add to the color we have to get the color we are attempting matching, which means our perception of color is very much the same. If that helps.
Tor
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jst2laws
JamesThomas,
Good to see you here too.
When I was a JW,. . . . I only allowed in those things which supported and sustained "me".
May I suggest that there is no real evolution or arising to higher consciousness, so much as removing or seeing through, what blinds us; which amounts to everything we believe "self" and universe to be.
As humans with perception limitations from the womb to the grave, we seem to go through a gradual process of improving our thinking ability and broaden our world view. As you noted, you "only allowed in those things which supported and sustained you". Data and experience that did not support your world view was either consciously thrown out or unconsciously dismissed. But why? Were we less honest with ourselves in the past or did something change that made it possible to 'remove or see through what blinded us'?
What you point out, a new perception of "self" and the universe, is the inevitable outcome of the progression and what many arrive at serendipitously through a study of quantum physics. The closer you look at stuff, the less it looks like stuff.
Always good to have your participation.
Steve
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Narkissos
As humans with perception limitations from the womb to the grave, we seem to go through a gradual process of improving our thinking ability and broaden our world view. As you noted, you "only allowed in those things which supported and sustained you". Data and experience that did not support your world view was either consciously thrown out or unconsciously dismissed. But why? Were we less honest with ourselves in the past or did something change that made it possible to 'remove or see through what blinded us'?
Hi Steve,
Subjective perception with all its optical and mental "illusions" (including "self") plays a very important role too.
To use my cat / mouse analogy again: there is a time for the mouse to "think" that it is not the cat -- time to hide and run away fromthe cat; then there may be a time to think -- or perhaps to know -- that there is no ultimate separation between the mouse and the cat: when it is eventually caught beyond hope. Otoh that would hardly be a good lesson to teach young mice.
True, we are neither mice nor cats, which give us some room for cultural change. But I don't think any society would work without a sense of individual separation and the accompanying desire and fear. We (individually and collectively) live on desire for, and fear of, difference. Undifferentiation is what we die on. Equally important but there's a time for everything, which is not the same for everyone.