WHY GOD CANNOT FORGIVE YOU

by Terry 53 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

*jeremiah*

In Christianity no such theology exists!
9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. [ a ] ' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.(Matt. 6)
15 "If your brother sins against you, [ b ] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' [ c ] 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be [ d ] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ e ] loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18)
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."(Matt. 18)
Terry

In the OT Yhwh's forgiveness (including for bloodguilt, cf. David and many Psalms, or the introduction of Isaiah, 1:16ff) is rarely if ever dependent on the individual victim's.
This, of course, is a fascinating subject!
Here is how I view any scrutiny of the OT.
1.Actual History (we can't really know what really happened).
2.National Myth (what eventually Israel believed about its past.)
3.Religious interpretation (the supposed relationship and dealings of a personal national God). This included the very idea that Israel was married to Jehovah!
4.Christian view of the OT. (Adjusted to make almost everything conform to a latter day Jesus prototype.)
In view of the above, it is very difficult to speak about Judaism without sorting through those layers!
How specifically one speaks about this and that can only be context specific or a meltdown of generality ensues.
I chose this topic to be viewed PHILOSOPHICALLY.
You can parse it as you will and make it come up skunks or roses, certainly.
Terry

12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors .
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. [ a ] ' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins .(Matt. 6)
18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be [ d ] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ e ] loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18)
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."(Matt. 18)
Yes? So?
Are you trying to say Jesus wasn't a Rabbi in Judaism?
Are you saying Jesus was speaking as a representative of what we now call Christianity?
My statement refers to THEOLOGY, does it not?
In Christianity no such theology exists!
THEOLOGY came along as an interpretation by the church fathers hundreds of years later.
My topic refers to the Theology of Judaism vs the Theology of Christianity.
The so called early church fathers debating and arguing and labeling one another heretics and such eventually gave us Orthodoxy in Christianity. It didn't float down out of heaven on a silver tray.
myelaine

Terry said:
"...three kinds of ethos:
1.Judaism
2.Neo-Platonic philosophy (from the likes of Paul)
3.A Hybrid religious/philosophy eventually called Christianity."
I was noticing how Terry's 1.2.and 3. "match up" with Acts 9:15, the three groups that were to receive the name of the Lord. (Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel) ...just noticing, that's all.
love michelle
Gill

Terry - Well it's a good job we don't apply religious laws in the West as we don't 'do' forgiveness!
If you do something wrong and the evidence is found you are punished, usually with fines and prison. Maybe sometimes and oftentimes the punishment is not severe enough, and sometimes it's over the top, but it's great that people don't get to ask their imaginary friend to forgive them and then get off with their crime. Isn't that the problem with religious laws as played out, for example in the Watchtower's pedophile scandal. Also, the scandals of Catholicism where the priests could forgive anyone.
That only the person sinned against should 'forgive' is also not good enough. Society has to be involved becasue one of the scary facts of life is that a criminal tends not to be a one off offender and will always 'sin against' the most vulnerable and those least able to protect/defend themselves.
Religion and God is a suitable source of comfort for people who enjoy being or just are bad.
If you do not have 'the law' in your heart, then you always need someone else to tell you what to do and what not to do and also to punish or punish and forgive you.
Personally, 'my imaginary friend (God) will forgive me' is just not good enough for me.
avidbiblereader

matt 16:23b you think, not God’s thoughts, but those of men.”
James 1:6-8 6 But when you ask him, be sure that your faith is in God alone. Do not waver, for a person with divided loyalty is as unsettled as a wave of the sea that is blown and tossed by the wind. 7 Such people should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.
1 Chronicles 28:9b for all hearts Jehovah is searching, and every inclination of the thoughts he is discerning. If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will cast you off forever.
My God DOES forgive me.
abr
JeffT

Have you considered the possibility that you're hanging out with the wrong bunch of "Christians." I've been associated with a Christian church (which is associated with several others in the area) for seventeen years, and I've never heard anything like what you're going on about.
An odd response!
You base your reply not on knowledge per se, but; on the basis of your experience with a small number of people.
Indeed.
If you have never heard anything like what I posted would that indicate an absence of data necessary for a full disclosure of matters to be considered BEFORE you make a decision one way or another?
In Logic there is a fallacy called the Argument from Ignorance.
Um, Terry I'm not the one making up arguments about what other people believe, entirely without reference. You say a bunch of things about what Christians beleive, but quote no source whatever.
For the record, I belong to the largest Christian church in the State of Washington. Hardly "a small number of people." It is a given in mainstream Christianity that forgiveness starts with repentance. (The Lord's prayer has already been quoted). Absent a correction of what was wrong, or at least acknowlegement of it there is no basis to assume that repentance has taken place; hence no forgiveness.
Perhaps you could tell us where your getting your ideas about what Christians believe.
*jeremiah*

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 Forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. [ a ] ' 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.(Matt. 6)
15 "If your brother sins against you, [ b ] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' [ c ] 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be [ d ] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be [ e ] loosed in heaven. (Matt. 18)
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."(Matt. 18)
My topic refers to the Theology of Judaism vs the Theology of Christianity.
The above scriptures are self-explanatory when it comes to Christian Theology. It's difficult to interpret the above scriptures to mean anything other than what they are stating. Its very plainly written.(although the Jdubs are very good at that)
I can't speak for the many sects of Christianity,...but I would say the majority believe the above words in their plain sense. 14 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins .(Matt. 6)
Perhaps I'm missing your point and, if so, forgive me for that, but how can Christian Theology interpret this any other way.
A Christian expects to sin against many people in the course of their life, but; proudly boasts that they aren't "perfect just forgiven." This is wrong by Judaism's ethical, moral and theologic standards.

A person becoming "Christian should understand that he/she is a sinner and feel remorse for sinning against the many people in his/her life. Therefore, they should forgive everyone who has ever sinned against them. Understanding this, one can go directly to God through the perfect Lamb, Jesus, instead of through a high priest and ask for forgiveness of sin. Then a Christian can boast,...but only in Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross.
But, "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." [ c ] 18 For it is not the one who commends himself who is approved, but the one whom the Lord commends.
Narkissos

Well, Terry, you chose to contrast Judaism (including the OT) and Christianity (including the NT) as if both of them were monolithic. Once it is pointed to you that they are not, that both of them are complex and, to an extent, self-contradictory on the very issue of forgiveness, your global contrast between them simply falls, and no amount of rhetoric will help avoid this conclusion.
What stands, otoh, is your logical criticism of the dominant Christian notion of forgiveness (which has most of its roots in the OT). Why would God forgive offenses against someone else?
The only answer I can think of, from a "mystical" standpoint which you probably won't like, is that "God" is not someone else ultimately.
Side remark: I think Matthew 6, 18 and the like rather make Terry's point, at least on a superficial interpersonal level, as they actually require the victim to forgive the offender in order to be forgiven in turn. From a purely ethical standpoint this is scandalous -- and, I think, meant to sound so.
JeffT

I don't have my references in front of me, so I will have to do some research when I get home, but it just occured to me that his discussion is based on a misunderstanding of the point of forgiving some one. Forgivness is extended not for the benefit of the one being forgiven, but for the benefit of the forgiver. By forgiving some one of the wrong done to oneself, you relieve yourself of the burden of carrying a grudge. This opens a clear path for God's forgiveness in our lives.
It does not relieve the one who transgressed from the necessity of clearing his own account, by making up for the transgression.

WHY GOD CANNOT FORGIVE YOU

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