by onacruse 50 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
"There is more happiness in giving than receiving" does not apply because of immortal life, it applies regardless. To have the most enjoyable life now, one needs to help others.
You may find "The God Delusion" beneficial, by Richard Dawkins as it shows that religion does not lead to nicer people, and answers the question "why are we moral?"
Howdy Craig. Good to see ya again. Hugs to Kate.
Lately it's occurred to me that one day I will actually die. I know that sounds stupid, but being raised in that weird little cult led me to believe for quite some time that I wouldn't die. Now that middle age is upon me, and my body is beginning to circle the drain I have wondered about what happens next.
If there is no life after death there is a large part of me that would be relieved. Oblivion wouldn't be so bad, I mean at least it wouldn't hurt. One very big concern, for me at least, is if there is a God/Jehovah/Allah/whatever, I cannot imagine him/her/it responding to me with anything less than bureaucratic and rigid punishment. I can believe in a kind god, one who cares, but I truly cannot conceive that it would apply to me. But then given Narkissos' excellent post, maybe I'm guilty of thinking in terms of "I".
Be well,
Chris
I can sympathize with your thoughts. I think many intelligent people eventually ask themselves this question. The people that don’t find an answer go right ahead and do whatever they want. This has always been a dangerous place for spirit creatures to live in fleshy form. I have asked myself the same questions. Taking stock of your ideals is certainly a good way to find an answer.
In the end, it was the kind words I received from friends, neighbours and complete strangers on the Internet that brought me a joy I don’t think I could ever obtain by being selfish (I help people, friends and neighbours in person and via the Internet) It’s a wonderful feeling and although I feel spiritually rich, I am in fact materially poor.
I feel the pinch at the end of my working week after the bills have been paid; so I’ll be there for you if you ever decide to evaluate your options, and figure that you’ll have more luck conquering a small nation, instead of yourself. I’ll be there to support you, to make you smile when you are downhearted and sad, to lift your load when it’s too heavy to bear, in gentleness, in kindness, in long-suffering, in patience, in mercy and brotherly love. I won’t have you go down that path alone, and I promise to visit you in jail :-p
So why do I insist on continuing to behave as if I do expect to live after I die?
Because you have a sense of morality. Those morals exist whether or not you believe in god or an afterlife and it is to your credit that you asked the question.
Warlock:
For me, how we behave in this life is of the utmost importance given that it is the only brief sliver of light we get in an eternity of darkness, rather than being a preamble to a completely different and infinitely longer life.LOL. That's a good one, derek.
Thank you, I think. I'm not sure what you found funny about it though, or perhaps you're one of those people for whom "LOL" is the written equivalent of a nervous tic. In any case, I was in a hurry when I wrote that and was a little more concise than I would have liked. What I meant was that, in my worldview, there were billions of years when I didn't exist, and there will be billions more after I cease to exist. This makes the brief time I have extremely precious. I can't extend it beyond a certain point, it could be taken away at any time, and all I can leave is my legacy (both genetic and cultural). This makes me want to strive to make that legacy the very best that I can. In contrast, in the worldview where this life is just a testing ground for an afterlife, it only has significance as a way of passing - doing whatever your particular deities require in order to get to the next level. This can, in extreme cases lead to people spending (wasting) a huge proportion of their life trying to please their gods. Many dedicate their whole lives to their gods, forsaking family, friends and gainful employment. A few (not few enough) end their own life and those of others in order to speed their passage to paradise. Even for less extreme believers, all the joys and challenges of their earthly life will become insignificant if they do indeed live forever. How much will you think about your first eighty years when you've been alive for a billion? It devalues life to think of it in this way, as a mere prelude to something better and more real. It stops people trying to make a difference because they believe they are worthless and powerless and everything that happens is part of their gods' plan. Of course, most religious people live seemingly moral lives, and I have no doubt that many of them are genuinely moral (as opposed to the pseudo-morality that comes from hope of reward or fear of punishment), but my point is that those who find no evidence for the existence of gods or an afterlife are not necessarily doomed to despair or amorality, but can find contentment in living a good productive life.
Derek:
I agree with your posts but had to afford myself a wry grin when I read this:
...all I can leave is my legacy (both genetic and cultural). This makes me want to strive to make that legacy the very best that I can.
Perchance is it time to stop procrastinating, stop smoking, and start making babies?
Kid:
Are those statistics adjusted to reflect the proportion of the poulation that has those beliefs? I ask because if JWs make up 0.7% of the population in prison, but only 0.1% of the planet's population it's surely a sad indictment on the group? It would make it a ratio of 7:1. By comparison Catholics are only about 1:1.
Craig:Following Didier and Dereks' points I have to agree that there is evidence for social evolution. But, with that acknowledged, what is to stop us from knowing the boundaries of what is permissible in society and skirting those boundaries as closely as possible. This scenario isn't as extreme as the one portrayed in your original post, but I suspect the results would be similarly catastrophic for society, if a critical mass of that kind of behaviour were in evidence. There's an equilibrium at play.
Good to see you back - it's been a looong time, pal!
Using the metaphor of darkness for non-existence is very telling imo of the inevitable self-centeredness of our mind. The world was not any darker before we were born, and it won't be any darker after we die. We make a big deal of our temporal finitude (or rather its "future" limit; the thought that "I" was not there in the 19th century seems to be more bearable somehow), but not of our spatial finitude. There is an infinity of places where "I am not" and this is not particularly painful.
In French I have a fondness for the futur antérieur -- future perfect -- tense, which we probably use more than its English equivalent. Nous aurons été : we shall have been. The eternal objectivity of the finite as beheld subjectively from within the finite, through its reflection on the mirror horizon of the infinite future -- the absolute other which I am not and will never be. Forever though we shall have been -- here and now. Both cruel and merciful. Undeniable anyway.
I would say that we can derive a sense of grace and freedom (in all the senses of "gratuitous," or "free") as well as of duty and urgency from the consciousness of finitude. Even in a short life there is the time for having been a lot of different things.
LittleToe:
Perchance is it time to stop procrastinating, stop smoking, and start making babies?
Yeah yeah, you sound like my girlfriend!
"But, with that acknowledged, what is to stop us from knowing the boundaries of what is permissible in society and skirting those boundaries as closely as possible."
Actually, I think that is the norm, at least for most people with a least a few boundaries. Look at drug use, alcohol, sex, speeding. For negatives ;), look at Nazi Germany, Iraq, Rwanda, Bosnia, Abu Ghraib, the willingness of American's to sanction torture and accept the repeal of Habeas Corpus, etc, etc.
Derek,
First of all, you smart guys always have to take some type of shot. Why is that? It's probably deep seated insecurity of your own "higher intelligence".
perhaps you're one of those people for whom "LOL" is the written equivalent of a nervous tic.
Second of all, if there is nothing after death, for at least for some of us, this life is just a waste, a tease, and for what?
there were billions of years when I didn't exist, and there will be billions more after I cease to exist.
So who is going to remember, or even care about your precious "legacy"?
Warlock
