Is Faith a Virtue? (page 3)

Gill

JWfacts - I really couldn't agree with you more on this. It seems that having a 'faith' is associated in people's minds with being 'good' or even being 'better' than a person who has no 'faith', in the religious sense.

And yet, religions can make ludicrous demands that are harmful in themselves to the practicer and even to others and no one will stand up and say that this is totally and completely wrong.

Ritual circumcision of baby boys is demanded by some of one faith and culture.

Ritual circumcision of girls is demanded by some of another faith and culture.

Jihad and martyrdom is praised by some faiths.

Dying for lack of blood transfusion is expected of some faiths.

I'm sure that we could go on with negative effects of faiths and religion and yet having 'faith' is still mistakenly viewed by some, who perhaps haven't even thought the question through, as a sign that this person is 'good' because they have a 'Faith'.

Shouldn't the question be, 'why does this person need to have a faith to be good? Can't they achieve that themselves?'

Faith is still mistakenly held up as a gold star achievement in many cultures.

Critical thinking is still not being employed by the masses.

LittleToe

The original question quoted Hebrews, hence had the context of Christian faith. My comments can only be read in that light., Of course there are wider issues and implications to that word, as Didier highlights.

Religious faith does not always result in creeps and maniacs (a very black and white response, IMHO), unless I'm deluding myself about myself...

Gill

((((( LT ))))))) You're No Creep or Maniac! But then that's the point. 'Faith' or 'no faith' you would have been a virtuous person!

'Faith' standing on its own is nothing. It is the good and virtuous heart, whatever a person believes or chooses to accept that is the honourable, just and good way.

bernadette

What faith are we discussing here.

Faith=confidence,trust or

faith=religion

or both acting together?

Its becoming very confusing

I vote to keep faith=confidence and discard the rest.

bernadette

Gill

Well, Faith in respects to trust, ie trusting your senses etc is plain common sense.

Faith in relation to religion depends on the suspension of common sense, but is viewed as a virtuous thing by some.

I'm with you in dispensing with the religious 'faith'.

Narkissos

Gill,

To me, your reference to Karma is an excellent example of ... belief. A theory that cannot be strictly inferred from phenomena, unprovable (actually easy to disprove were it stated in falsifiable terms), but it helps you make sense of "life" subjectively -- to rationalise the chaotic flow of events by linking them selectively with a form of causality. The refutations of such theories are as old as the theories themselves (in the Bible, think of the Deuteronomistic or Chronicle versions of "retribution" and their denial in Job or Ecclesiastes) and both keep on thriving.

As far as beliefs go, I have a preference for "grace," as the smiling face of "nonsense"... which of course does not rule out some limited experiences of "justice" of "karma" -- on the contrary, "grace" presupposes the ideal of "justice" which it surpasses.

bernadette

Gill

Narkissos - My reference to Karma, I'd like to explain. I don't mean it in a sense of after life but as a consequence to an action that we take in this life, as in 'What goes around comes around.'

I know of someone who taught her daughter to be selfish and haughty and also extremely critical and intolerant of other people. As this woman got older she was surprised to find her daughter treat her in such a way. Finally, the woman became old and was put in a home by her selfish, haughty arrogant daughter. The daughter had a son, who learnt this was the way to behave and acted in such a way with his mother when she too became old.

Our behaviour influences the behaviour of others, which influences the behaviours of others.......which eventually influences how other treat us.

Everything seems to come back and bite you on the butt eventually!

lowden

If i have a vague tendency to believe in Kharma, which i sometimes do, that is nothing to do with faith. It's just a belief. I just think it might happen. That's not faith. It's probably not even a belief for that matter.

Faith as we are discussing here is (presumably mainly linked to the bible definition) something that has to affect the whole life pattern with a very dominating effect.

Faith that is whimsical and namby pamby is utterly useless from the standpoint of Christianity, id est the resurrection hope. It needs to be strong and unwavering. It is a constant struggle to keep it where it should be.

Herein lies the rub.

To have oneself, nay make oneself be dominated by faith in something which is unproven is dangerous for the soul and we are ALL living proof!!!!!!

How many people who had faith in the WTS and the scriptures have had their lives turned almost irreversibly upside down when they learned in was all damn lies? To break their fall many still insist on having faith in the patriarchal writings.

Having faith in that which has no tangible proof is a very leaky boat to be on. The come-down will always be hard to deal with.

Peace

Lowden

Narkissos

Gill,

I had understood your point. Of course this happens. But, objectively, this is by no means a rule. A number of bloodthirsty tyrants end up their lives quite peacefully (think of Pinochet as a recent example). Most often the consequences of an action are suffered by others, elsewhere and later. The wheel of causes and consequences moves forward as it turns.

Btw, there is a good case that the belief of reward and punishment in the afterlife came up because the doctrine of retribution in this life was deemed unsatisfactory. This is, for instance, what happened in the context of persecution and martyrdom in the Maccabean era, opening the way to the development of doctrine of hell, paradise, and resurrection in later Judaism.

Is Faith a Virtue?

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