If Jesus could talk to Satan...

AuldSoul

Consider the scene: Jesus has just been baptized and immediately leaves for an extended stay in the wilderness all on his lonesome. Now ... already this is something the Governing Body would discourage any JW from doing, but I digress.

Along comes Satan. Jesus knows it is Satan, because of how Satany he is. Plus he can do cool tricks like carrying Jesus high enough to see all the kingdoms of the world ... which can only done if the earth is flat ... or if Jesus has super X-ray vision like Superman had ... or if Satan had the ability to grant such an ability ... but if it was X-ray vision then they didn't need to go up high in the first place ... er, I digressed again.

So Satan comes along but Jesus didn't rebuke Satan. Instead, he has a lengthy Scriptural discussion with his Father's archenemy—really, a doctrinal discussion, with both sides using power of persuasion full-tilt.

If Jesus is my family's exemplar, and they believe I am an apostate, why are they not allowed to follow Jesus' example?

Can some JW please answer that one for me?

AuldSoul

Followup: Am I more dangerous than Satan? In which case, do they consider me worse than Satan?

agapa37

So Satan comes along but Jesus didn't rebuke Satan. Instead, he has a lengthy Scriptural discussion with his Father's archenemy—really, a doctrinal discussion, with both sides using power of persuasion full-tilt.

If Jesus is my family's exemplar, and they believe I am an apostate, why are they not allowed to follow Jesus' example?

Can some JW please answer that one for me?

Yes Auld I can try. What you are actuallt doing is LOOKING for something to use against the JWS within that account that is not there! You make alot of ASSUMPTIONS...example..really, a doctrinal discussion, with both sides using power of persuasion full-tilt. For one, where do you see a doctrinal discussion? It is not a discussion but is a temptation as the BIBLE says. Both sides using power of persuasion? Where? That account shows Satan MISAPPLYING (much like you have done with this account) scriptures to tempt Jesus and Jesus countering with the truth. Basiclly my answer to you is; Don't try to make something outta nothing! I hope that has helped you.

sir82

Stock JW reply:

"But, Jesus was perfect, you see...he could handle Satan. I'm an imperfect human being, unlike Jesus. You might stumble me by ~~stating the truth~~ twisting the scriptures to suit your nefarious ends"

AuldSoul

Ah, agapa37. Thank you for trying to help. But you see, there is no need for both sides to be discussing doctrine in order for it to be a doctrinal discussion. In the case under consideration, according to the Bible account both sides discussed doctrine so your point is null in its entirety.

To wit: Jesus reply in each case was to cite doctrine as persuasive cause to resist temptation. Satan's use of Scripture in one case was an attempt to cite a Scripture as doctrine that was not actually a doctrine at all, however, he cited it as doctrine and used the citation as persuasion.

True?

Ergo, it was a doctrinal discussion. Are you, by chance, currently a JW? I hope your facility with the english language, language comprehension, and conceptual discussion is as readily apparent to lurkers as it is to me.

However, the ultimate point was, Jesus was carrying on a Scriptural discussion with Satan. Jehovah's Witnesses tell my family not to follow Jesus' example in this matter.

Yes Auld I can try.

Can you explain why? If not, please explain why you can't. In point of fact, you didn't try. You tried to critique the validity of my premise, but you did not try to answer my question. If you can't even do that, please refrain from commenting on this thread as it will make you appear foolish. As delightful as that appearance is to me, it will serve as a needless distraction from the real topic under discussion and may prevent someone from understanding the validity of this question.

AuldSoul

Simply put:

(1) According to the Bible, Jesus knowingly carried on a Scriptural discussion with Satan.

(2) Jehovah's Witnesses tell my family members and friends they cannot carry on a Scriptural discussion with me, on pain of disfellowshipping.

Can anyone (even you, agapa37) clearly explain why Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to follow Jesus' example in this matter?

sir82, if Jesus perfection was a "magic talisman" was he actually tempted?

Respectfully,
AuldSoul

agapa37

I thought I did answer that question. It was NOT a discussion. The Bible says it was a TEMPTATION! It was a question /challenge(satan) and answer (Jesus) type exchange. OK, we can call it a discussion in the literal sense of the word for the sake of argument, but as I said before, the way you are trying to apply it to your scenario does not fit. The type of interaction that you and I are having now is something discouraged by the JWS. Why? well I am sure you know why. You yourself openly called yourself an apostate in there eyes and asked why JWS wouldn't converse with you. Do we need to look to Pauls letters to see why?

AuldSoul

Why don't we look to Paul's letter to see why? In fact, if Paul's letter explains why, why didn't you answer with Paul's letter?

... could it be that Paul's letter doesn't call me an apostate?

... could it be that I have not openly called myself an apostate, except insofar as I have abandoned an organization to which I was formerly loyal that cannot Scripturally support its teachings?

... would anyone argue that, according to the Bible, Satan was not an apostate when Jesus talked with him?

But I will digress to the point you chose to address (which had nothing whatever to do with the question I asked): in English, which is apparently not your native tongue, descriptive terms are not mutually exclusive. That means, more than one descriptive term or phrase may be accurately applied to the exact same object or subject.

"Temptation" does not exclude "discussion." Ponder that well, and get back to me after you have hit the dictionary. Otherwise, I will have to verbally spank you with Mr. Merriam and Mr. Webster.

You stated that you would try to answer my question. You did not try to answer my question, you tried to invalidate my question. Not at all the same thing. Again, Mr. Merriam and Mr. Webster may be of some benefit to you.

As I read the account, three requests are made. Three requests are answered. One request is made on purportedly doctrinal grounds. All requests are answered on doctrinal grounds. If one request is made and one request is answered, regardless of the nature of the request (i.e. "temptation") a discussion has occurred. If either the request or answer is of a doctrinal nature the discussion is a doctrinal discussion.

I am trying hard to break this down for you. Did you get it yet?

agapa37

Yes I got it. But you don't get what I am saying. JWS are encouraged to follow Jesus example. The example of Jesus and satans DISCUSSION/temptation is NOT the same example of JWS talking to you. So for the third time, trying to apply the temptation account with the senario of JWS talking to you is a far stretch from being the samething or even close to being the same application. This will be my last post for the day because old habits die hard and can only post five a day! A little advice, try to be a bit more simple in words, when talking to us JWS, we are just that way.

So to answer your Question, why won't JWS get into a bible discussion with you? Because as you said they feel you are an apostate and the bible warns God's people to steer clear of them and , at least I do, feel that Jesus example with Satan does not apply to your scenario! Got it? I hope so because I am tired of repeating myself. I will respond tomarrow if I haven't been futher disciplined. Have a great day!

sir82

(I am answering only as a standard JW would, I don't actually believe any of this stuff, mind you...but this may be helpful for lurkers)

sir82, if Jesus perfection was a "magic talisman" was he actually tempted?

Joe JW: "Of course he was tempted, he could have failed...thank God he didn't! But being perfect, he was much stronger spiritually than I am. Jesus was strong enough to be able to put up a good fight & actually win. Who knows what you, a nasty vile apostate have been up to! You are probably getting your reasoning points directly from a Ouija board, i.e., from Ol' Scratch himself. The Watchtower always warns me to watch out for 'crafty acts', 'angels of light', etc."

"Perfection = spiritually stong, imperfection = spiritually weaker...Satan himself, or maybe a very strong demon, might well have you in his clutches"

If Jesus could talk to Satan...

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