If Jesus could talk to Satan...

by AuldSoul 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Okay, I have some simple numbered questions for you, agapa37. Please answer according to the doctrines of Jehovah's Witnesses. Maybe this will help JW lurkers, too.

    (1) According to the Bible, was Satan an apostate from at least the Garden of Eden onward? (the meaning of "apostate"; Genesis 3)

    (2) Was Satan, a known apostate, allowed in the assembly of God's angels? (Job 1-3)

    (3) Did Jesus talk with Satan? (Matthew 4)

    (4) Did Jesus use Scriptures when talking with Satan? (Matthew 4)

    (5) Did Jehovah both talk with and allow himself to be influenced by Satan? (Job 1-3)

    (6) Would the interaction between Jesus and Satan described in Matthew 4 be permissable for Jehovah's Witnesses? (Matthew 4)

    Please answer each numbered question according to your religion's current doctrine. When you are done, you will find that the question I asked is valid, after all.

    You will discover that had Jesus been one of Jehovah's Witnesses today and a similar event occurred, an investigation of his conversation with the known apostate, Satan, would have led to his disfellowshipping if he (1) acknowledged that the conversation took place and (2) stubbornly refused to repent from it.

    That, indisputably, being the case: Why is it okay for Jesus to talk with Satan but not okay for my family to talk with me? To this last question limit yourself to a Scriptural response only, please.

    A little advice, try to be a bit more simple in words, when talking to us JWS, we are just that way.

    Please regard the following as written only due to this quoted statement.

    It is amazing to me that you don't at once discern the validity of this line of questioning. I can only assume that your resistance is due to cognitive dissonance. It isn't that you don't get it. You can't get it, because ... if you get it you might have to do something about having got it. And you do't even want to imagine what that might mean. Like the parents of the man born blind, you are immobilized by your fear of those who have elevated themselves to a lofty place.

    You say, "We see." (John 9) You believe they are not wrong to have expelled me from their synagogue simply for speaking honestly. You believe their secretive (often nighttime) courts are valid and its arbitrarily declared judgments are from God, but would condemn the Pharisees for holding Jesus' public trial at night.

    But, I don't blame you. I am working very hard to break the spell that binds you; to break the neck of the wicked organization behind the ill-gotten name "Jehovah's Witnesses".

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Yep, sir82, I knew that was how you were answering.

    The Watchtower always warns me to watch out for 'crafty acts', 'angels of light', etc."

    Nothing like the robber warning you about robbers and asking for a job as nightwatchman, eh?

    I come straight across with everything I have to say, but I am supposedly crafty. I tell people straight off I don't want them to believe a word I say, but I am supposedly painting myself as an angel of light.

    On the other hand, they call themselves messengers of light (i.e. "angels of light") and say that everyone should heed their words, yet the Scripture that discusses "transforming themselves into angels of light" doesn't apply to them.

    Something is fetid in the state of Denial.

  • Doubting Bro
    Doubting Bro

    Sir82,

    You beat me to the punch! And, they would also answer that Adam and Eve were both perfect and they (at least Eve) were seduced by temptation.

    In my recent reading of Paul's letters, I noticed that the superfine apostles (basically fit the WT definition of apostate) were still in the congregation. Some left, but it seems to me that they left on their own. And, I don't see where the command to never speak or even debate with them. I do see that Paul told Timothy to fight Hymenaeus and Alexander. I take that to mean prove them wrong.

    Just rambling off the top of my head.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    oh. this thread is only for JWs.

    oh well.

    long live lucifer, liberator of minds, ultimate apostate of all time.

    tetra

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    oh. this thread is only for JWs.

    Nope, all are welcome, Satan's spawn.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Good point, Doubting Bro!

    On that note, in the text regarding Hymenaeus and Philetus we find the exact teaching they held that was considered apostate. Anyone who read the letter could decide for themselves whether the teaching was apostate.

    The WTS tells JWs not to consider any apostate thinking. This proscription includes a portion of the Bible, itself.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    well auldsoul, i find all this interesting. because not only was satan an apostate to YHVH, but jesus was also an apostate to judaism.

    so, here we have two apostates talking with each other. it sounds to me like satan was the only one in the deal cool with the fact that they both belonged to the same club. perhaps he had longer time to get used to the notion of being an apostate.

    or perhaps, as i really think (na tetra, tell us how you really see it).... satan was jesus' ego. satan was right inside, and the test came from within. jesus, understanding his real potential as someone who could be very successful, ultimately turned from a life of riches and power, to a life of helping humans. the more that jesus understood about the world, the less room there was for his ego.

    tetra

  • Fleshybirdfodder
    Fleshybirdfodder

    I can't believe you are all missing the obvious. If you look at the illustrations of Jesus in most (except for that weird pink book that preceeded the Live Forever Book) of the Society's publications, Jesus had a beard. Beard, ergo: weak spiritually. He didn't know any better than to talk to Satan. Once the Elders reproved him and took away his microphone privileges I'm sure he shaved and bought a decent suit from Walmart. Let that be a lesson to all of us toying with the temptation of growing facial hair (well trimmed mustaches excepted).

    FBF

  • heathen
    heathen

    I think the WTBTS dogma is that satan used some sort of holographic imagery to show jesus the kingdoms of the world .The act of communicating with diviners is outlawed in the old testament , God is the only being we are allowed to uless he sends an angel such as gabriel to communicate his will.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Even JW rules suffer a number of exceptions:

    Perhaps Jesus, as an elder in good standing, was just checking if Satan didn't want to be reinstated.

    Or they were brothers discussing some necessary family business.

    (Btw, nice to see you AuldSoul)

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