by AuldSoul 62 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
I always wondered why Jesus spoke to Satan.........................he was the most evil creature, so why would he?
And also Jehovah talked and got into a discussion and even a debate (about Job) and then started taking bets on who would win, Job or satan
This always made me curious, why would they speak to evil incarnate and we couldnt talk to some weak family member or friend
And were in the bible does it say Satan was an apostate?
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I have a side question. Was Jesus perfect before the temptation? Or was his success in resisting the temptation part of his becoming perfect?
Also, how could he have been said to be perfect having been born of woman, in the flesh? Even with Jehovah's seed? He'd be at least 1/2 imperfect human.
If the temptation was part of his becoming, then all "True Christians" should follow his example and confront Satan head on.
Auldsoul, I don't see how your comparison to yourself is really very valid. You are, after all, just you, not Jesus or Satan.
Interesting points, monkeyshine. It raises another related thought:
If God could patiently tolerate Satan saying to his face that he was doing things improperly (for over 6,000 years) why can't this organization tolerate me doing that for the geological eye-blink that I will be around to torture them?
Curious quandary they put themselves in, rhetorically speaking, eh?
Good to see you, too, Didier! Sorry, I didn't notice the last line of your post earlier. I wasn't snubbing you, I promise.
vitty,
And were in the bible does it say Satan was an apostate?
The Bible doesn't say that. The Bible doesn't say a lot of things Jehovah's Witnesses teach. I was appealing to agapa37's reasoning based on church dogma, I couldn't appeal based on Scripture because their church dogma isn't based on Scripture.
For all of agapa37's insistence on observing the exact wording of the Bible (e.g. "TEMPTATION!!!!") I daresay a different tune would be sung regarding other words, like "Paradise", "worship", "prayer", "spirit", "grace", etc. ad infinitum. For these myriad words all sorts of assumptions and interpretations are not only allowable, they are required in order to properly understand the Bible. Just pin any JW down on the matter and they will all but tell you so.
Listen closely and you can hear the crickets chirping in the distance from agapa37's direction.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
If Jesus is also Michael the archangel then how does one explain how Jesus the archangel had "...a difference with the devil and was disputing over Moses body, he did not dare to bring judgment against him in abusive terms, but said, "May Jehovah rebuke you?"
A perfect creature in company with an evildoer!
Golf
(1) According to the Bible, was Satan an apostate from at least the Garden of Eden onward? (the meaning of "apostate"; Genesis 3)
Yes Satan could be considered the first apostate, as he was the first to cause someone to apostasize from true worship
(2) Was Satan, a known apostate, allowed in the assembly of God's angels? (Job 1-3)
Yes Satan was allowed in Heaven. He was not forcibly removed until Jesus became king of God's kingdom. Until then, Jehovah gave him the freedom to go where he pleased.
(3) Did Jesus talk with Satan? (Matthew 4)
Jesus answered his temptations
(4) Did Jesus use Scriptures when talking with Satan? (Matthew 4)
Jesus did answer Satan with Scriptures
(5) Did Jehovah both talk with and allow himself to be influenced by Satan? (Job 1-3)
yes and no. I do not see where Jehovah is being influenced by Satan. (Look up influence with Miriam-Webster: alter, modify - neither of which did Jehovah do when talking with Satan) He answers Satan's taunts, but does not change in anyway.
(6) Would the interaction between Jesus and Satan described in Matthew 4 be permissable for Jehovah's Witnesses? (Matthew 4)
Jehovah's witnesses probably shouldn't be talking to Satan. :)
That, indisputably, being the case: Why is it okay for Jesus to talk with Satan but not okay for my family to talk with me?
I dispute your assumption that Jesus would be disfellowshipped for talking with Satan. Situations would be taken into account. If I were on a mountain and an apostate came and tempted me 3 times and all I responded with was scripture (then told him to get lost), I would not be disfellowshipped.
You keep referring to Jesus temptations from Satan to a fullfledged conversation. According to scripture, it was 3 temptations.
Satan: "make bread out of this rock", Jesus: "man lives on utterances from God too".
Satan: "jump, God will save you", Jesus: "don't put God to the test".
Satan: "worship me!", Jesus: "worship only God! Leave me, now."
Not much of an indepth conversation. I highly doubt this to be a disfellowshipping offense.
Edit:ooops, I guess I didn't finish answering your question.
Since Jesus didn't have a real in-depth conversation with Satan, neither should your family have one with you.
If satan was a double agent or the leader of double agents...he would be the biggest threat to evil ever...because he could expose his subordinates tricks and tactics to everyone..rendering them useless.
Like the magician who exposed all the tricks a few years ago.
Let God hand them over to him so that they may taught not to blaspheme,,,,I want to watch.
AuldSoul..In WBT$ World,Jesus would kick Satan in the nuts and say:"Thats what you get!".....Be happy your starting a new life and a new job,with the love of your life..My best to you and the Mrs...OUTLAW
metaspy,
Are Jehovah's Witnesses doctrinally allowed to answer an apostate's questions with Scriptures?
If not, are they really encouraged to follow the example of Jesus?
Also, if Satan did not "influence" (according to Merriam-Webster) Jehovah, why did Jehovah permit Satan to do to Job what he had not formerly permitted Satan to do to Job?
Main Entry: 2 influence
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -enced; -enc·ing
1 : to affect or alter by indirect or intangible means : SWAY
2 : to have an effect on the condition or development of : MODIFY
Your response is intriguing in that it admits that church dogma holds Satan to be the first apostate and seems to regard the discussion (see Merriam-Webster) between Satan and Jesus as a good thing.
Curiously,
AuldSoul
metaspy,
Here are the three questions I would ask, and would welcome Scriptural answers for:
(1) Where can I find the Scriptures that teach that the faithful and discreet slave is a "class" of people that comprises the conduit for God's spirit to direct his "spirit-directed organization" and has the resonsibility of interpreting and revealing "new light" to the "other sheep," who could not possibly get this light from any other source?
(2) Where can I find the Scriptures that teach that elders can convene private trials that cannot be recorded and judge ones undeserving of God's favor on behalf of and instead of the congregation, the details of which judgments and trials will never be made known to the congregation?
(3) Where can I find the Scriptures that teach that regular meeting attendance, Bible study, regularity in publishing the good news, a specific prayer of dedication to God, and undergoing a question and answer test are required for Christian baptism?
I invite any JW to follow the example of Jesus and limit their response to Scriptures ONLY. In fact, I daresay that if any JW can do so, I will cease all efforts against the Watchtower Society as of the moment of reading the Scriptures cited and seek to become reinstated.
I disassociated myself because many who were asked, including my Presiding Overseer father and the current CO (Griffiths) could not provide me Scriptural reasons for their doctrine and could not provide me Scriptural justification for organizational practices, such as judging others for what they themselves did (e.g. "choosing to join a secular organization with objectives contrary to God's will and hence under judgment by Jehovah God", see the om or od book under "Disassociation").
However, metaspy, they don't respond to these questions with Scriptures. They respond with Watchtower articles and reams of human reasoning instead of following Jesus' example. If Jesus, a perfect man, did not rely on human reasoning for his replies, why on earth would any of these so-called Christians rely on human reasoning for their replies?
The only conclusion I could come to was that they rely on human reasoning because no Scriptures are available to them.
What is your conclusion?
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
