Faith in God and the Church - Part 1 of 2

by Amazing 44 Replies latest jw friends

  • Terry
    Terry
    With respect to unconditional love, giveing it is never a waste. Love is not a commodity like money that we dole out by measure and use it to barter for what we want. If that were the case, then we would no love those who have nothing to give in return, because they would only spnd our love and not give back. Jesus said to show love and NOT expect anything in return. That is the test of genuine love, verses the phoeny kind that only seeks its own interests

    Unconditional love is pointless. It diminishes the giver.

    Ever hear a battered woman talk about how it was her fault her man hit her? God blames the victim (the sinner) for their own nature and then ostentatiously relaxes his "perfect" standard in rescuing them from his own standard! This is a ludicrous example of "love".

    Unconditional anything doesn't fit the real world. For anything to have a value it must meet conditions.

    You can impute value to a check by writing a large amount on it, but; the actual real world value comes from meeting the condition of having the funds to back it up.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Terry,

    Unconditional love is pointless. It diminishes the giver. ... Ever hear a battered woman talk about how it was her fault her man hit her? God blames the victim (the sinner) for their own nature and then ostentatiously relaxes his "perfect" standard in rescuing them from his own standard! This is a ludicrous example of "love". Unconditional anything doesn't fit the real world. For anything to have a value it must meet conditions. You can impute value to a check by writing a large amount on it, but; the actual real world value comes from meeting the condition of having the funds to back it up.

    A battered woman should not remain with the batterer ... she needs protection and to terminate the marriage. This does not mean that she is being or acting unloving by doing this. Her strong stand may be the best act of love ever given to the mean husband. Love does not have to be blind and foolish. The real world is harsh precisely because not enough unconditional love is given. If we compare love to a blank check we miss the point of what love is. Love is not a commodity to be bartered, for it is priceless and cannot be bought. I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree on this point.

    Thanks, Jim Whitney

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Hello Jim!

    I can only wish that others too will experience God, and find their spirits awakened to him

    Last month Bob Molofsky (CO) called me and, among other things, inquired about 'my prayer life.' I told him that I'd initiated conversation with God well over 100,000 times in my life, and He never saw fit to answer back. Odd, that Bob didn't see the contradiction in his leaving me just 2 voicemails, and in his third (since I hadn't yet answered) he said he presumed that I didn't want to talk. So, by those standards, at least, it's completely logical for me to assume that God doesn't want to talk with me. At any rate, I'll leave it up to Him to initiate the discussion: of course, I'm assuming that He's capable of so doing.

    But, insofar as you and others have said, I do agree that there's no arguing with personal experience. If someone asserts that they have indeed had a conversation with God, or that He's somehow touched their lives in a tangible way, then who am I (and indeed, why should I even try to) argue with them?

    Rhetorically speaking: Whatever floats your boat...as long as your boat doesn't hit me on the head.

    Respectfully,

    Craig

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Craig,

    I told him that I'd initiated conversation with God well over 100,000 times in my life, and He never saw fit to answer back.

    Your profile today says that you are 54-years, 8-months, and 29-days old. Counting leap-years, this converts to approximately 19,993-days old. If you started praying every day since the day you were born, you would have initiated at least 5 prayers (conversations) per day. That is an impressive record. And, after all of that, God has never once answered a single prayer? ... Or do you mean that he never engaged in literal human-style two-way conversation with you?

    If what you have been doing is not working, then by now do you think it is time to stop doing it? I mean, 100,000 prayer attempts seem like enough to conclude that something is wrong, don't you? One definition of insanity is to continue to do the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. I used to post in a sarcastic-humoristic-parody style about how I wanted God to come in to my home just once, sit down, have a cup of coffee, and give me just 10 minutes of his busy life and talk to me. If he did that for every person on earth, given our current 6.6 billion people, it would require 125,570-years. Obviously, he would not get to most people using a human standard to reach each person. I suppose that God has the capability of doing something like that by being in multiple locations at the same time, and taking in all the conversation at the same time.

    The point of my above article is that we might make the mistake of imposing humanity upon the divine. I finally got God to answer me, and I finally learned how to listen to how he communicated. Maybe I need to include that in my Part 2 about the Church. But, rhetorically speaking: Whatever floats my boat is fine as long as my boat does not hit you on the head. Then again, maybe we need a good slap upside the head to get our attention!

    Jim Whitney

  • Terry
    Terry

    I'm thinking of a scene in the film Dumb and Dumber where the Jim Carrey character says to the object of his desire:

    "Do you think there's any chance at all that you could want me too?"

    As honestly as she can, the lady replies: "The chances are about a million to one."

    Jim Carrey's face lights up with ecstatic enthusiasm and he says:"Sooooo...you're saying there IS A CHANCE!"

    A silly example of how to find what we want despite all evidence to the contrary.

  • Outaservice
    Outaservice

    I think a good thread to develope might be dealing with different ways God can communicate (talk) with us and/or work/influence our lives. It might be in ways we have never even contemplated. Of course in the past there have been dreams, visions, angels, and other people whom God has used. Anything else?

    Outaservice

  • bebu
    bebu
    I finally got God to answer me, and I finally learned how to listen to how he communicated.
    I think a good thread to develope might be dealing with different ways God can communicate (talk) with us and/or work/influence our lives. It might be in ways we have never even contemplated. Of course in the past there have been dreams, visions, angels, and other people whom God has used. Anything else?

    I think such a thread would be good as well. What conditions have made it possible for God to speak, or for us to finally be able to hear? Again, that's for another thread. I am enjoying this one very much, btw.

    bebu

  • NanaR
    NanaR

    Amazing,

    Thank you so much for taking the time to compose and post this. I absolutely love the clarity of your reasoning.

    As you know, I have started on my own "journey of faith" -- toward becoming a Catholic. As I was considering certain points of faith -- most notably the Trinity -- I reasoned along much the same lines as you. The Trinity cannot be conclusively "proven" from scripture -- but the shadows are there, proof of the divinity of Christ is there. If God exists, and if he is the great "First Cause", then how could we ever imagine that we as puny humans could fully understand or describe him through words in a book, even a book inspired by him? He is, as you so clearly point out, NOT THE SAME AS WE ARE (which of course makes his coming in the flesh among us an even greater gift).

    Also your point is very valid that belief and faith are not the same thing. When I left the Witnesses, I lost my faith in God. But I did not entirely lose my belief in God. I just couldn't figure out who he was or what, if anything, he wanted from me or humans in general.

    As a Witness, I was taught to completely mistrust all emotion in worship -- that those who claim to be "moved by Holy Spirit" are really coming in contact with demons. But when I experienced religious emotion for the very first time while being blessed by a priest in a Catholic Church service, I gained the strength to start dismantling my JW conditioning and seek a real relationship with Jesus Christ. I gained a new faith.

    The saddest component for me of leaving the Watchtower was that for a time I really felt that I had "lost God". But he found me.

    And I found wise friends like you to help me in my journey back to Him.

    Your friend,

    Ruth

  • NanaR
    NanaR
    Love is not a commodity to be bartered, for it is priceless and cannot be bought.

    What a wonderful way to say it :-)

    My comment would be that once a person actually EXPERIENCES unconditional love for themselves, they would never be able to deny its value.

    Ruth

  • Terry
    Terry
    Love is not a commodity to be bartered, for it is priceless and cannot be bought. I understand where you are coming from, but I have to disagree on this point.

    Love is a concept. The involuntary physical reaction stems from the value we placed on the thing loved. The value we attached comes from something we either observe, imagine or impute.

    When we actually see something in somebody to admire we experience the feeling of admiration. But, if we merely impute admiration indiscriminately we devalue our standards. Think of the people who admire gangstas, criminals, empty-headed celebrities. The admiration is felt even though the standard of admiration (their values) come from the bar being set so low in the first place.

    In other words, our values are well-informed at best and ill-informed at worst. But, either way; our values have to connect WITH SOME REALITY to have any legal tender.

    Love doesn't float in the air like pollen, you know! We create our own emotions by how we have informed our own values. How do we inform our values? Only two ways: 1.Actively, by analysis and the use of a personal standard, or 2. Passively, by absorbing the opinions of others without critical analysis.

    If we are raised in a household where the mom is beaten by the dad the value of "love" is informed by that behavior. The standard of what "love is" becomes the trigger for thinking about the kind of treatment one accepts while still feeling "love" inside.

    You see what I am saying? The LOVE I'm talking about is an actuality based on cues and information and experience as well as one's enviornment.

    Some people "love" liver and onions or hot peppers. Their evaluation is based on their culture and experience and the standards of cuisine they grew up with. They actually feel that "love" connected to their craving and appetite as a result.

    So too with any other kind of love.

    Love is a result. It is the result of a value. The value is based on a perception. The perception is informed by experience or by hearsay and custom. (Depending on whether you take charge of your own thinking or let others programme it for you.)

    The love you are speaking about has been indoctrinated into you. It is imaginary. It has no actual standard measured by a reality. it "just is" like Santa Claus.

    When we change our way of measuring reality our values change accordingly. We better inform our own tastes in this way. How else can people break bad habits when formerly they "loved" cigarettes or an unhealthy lifestyle?

    The more we know and the more we clearly examine the actual source of our values the better able are we to experience "accurate" emotions. We no longer just fall passively into a thrall from some magical feeling that comes seemingly out of nowhere.

    You see?

    UNconditional love says "There are no conditions which make this person (or thing) worthy of admiration and good will on my part--BUT--I'm going to act as though they are admirable and beneficial to give my attention to anyway."

    Ludicrous, no? We have a choice of spending our time on worthwhile and healthy things or wasting our time on trivial pursuits that drag us down---AND WE ACT LIKE THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE??? Come on, now; really!

    Do you really treat bad things, disgusting people, harmful activities THE SAME as you do the very best life has to offer?

    That is what UNconditional says you must do.

    In the context of God, the bible and the purest love according to religion. Can you say God places NO CONDITIONS whatsoever on whom he will accept and those whom he rejects? Of course not!

    God has the highest standards of all. Ask yourself why?

    A god without standards is a god who doesn't recognize the reality of Good or Evil and treats them both THE SAME!

    UNconditional love would require that behavior.

    Think about the consequences of this belief you have about UN conditional love. It is not sensible, it is illogical and it just doesn't work for anybody.

    The clinics are filled with people who tried to exercise unconditional love and who pay the consequence.

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