by Amazing 44 Replies latest jw friends
Terry,
Your description of love seems rather mechanical and devoid of its depth and breadth. What you describe is not love, but some attempt at psychobable that is not relevant to what love is about. I will read through your comments again later on, and maybe start a separate posting on the topic, and give a more detailed response. But, in the meantime, we just disagree.
Thanks,
Jim Whitney
Jim, and thank you for taking my post in the way I intended...indeed, in the way I fully expected that you'd take it!
Your profile today says that you are 54-years, 8-months, and 29-days old. Counting leap-years, this converts to approximately 19,993-days old. If you started praying every day since the day you were born, you would have initiated at least 5 prayers (conversations) per day. That is an impressive record. And, after all of that, God has never once answered a single prayer? ... Or do you mean that he never engaged in literal human-style two-way conversation with you?
There were stretches of months that I prayed every hour on the half-hour. As an explanation: Like you, I too thought, for a period of about 10 years, that I was one of the anointed. The set-up for that came when I was 16, sitting in my bedroom, and praying with the absolute sincerity and conviction that is typical for a teenage true believer. Among many other things, I prayed that, if God saw fit, he would accept me as a candidate for heavenly life. I felt an ecstatic response, a tingling in my whole body, as if He had acknowledged my sensitivity.
That feeling came back around to me when I was in the process of being reinstated (some 12 years later). As I sat, alone, df'd, in the chairs at a District Assembly, I suddenly felt another ecstasy, with the conviction that God had, after my trials and tribulations of df'ing for apostasy and reluctant request for readmittance to the church of His Chosen People, decided that I was indeed worthy of an invitation to see Him.
I was so convinced (and by now, far more than a teenager), that I told my family and closest friends, and discussed it openly with my first wife (now deceased) and another of the anointed (Lake Oswego congregation...he is also now deceased).
However, based on the pressure from my family and friends, and from a good measure of embarrassment, I never partook.
So, in answer to your question: In all that time, I never heard a word from God.
I am now convinced that it was my own imagination, based on my overwhelming need to be approved according to the standards of the Bible, and even more, according to the standards of the Watchtower Society, the Society in which I was raised, that virtually thrust me in the direction (psychologically speaking) of yearning for, grasping for, and (in my own mind) finally finding a way for) the fulfillment of that need.
If what you have been doing is not working, then by now do you think it is time to stop doing it?...I suppose that God has the capability of doing something like that by being in multiple locations at the same time, and taking in all the conversation at the same time.
My point exactly. I stopped doing it, and there was no difference in my life. And God (insofar as I have conjured up His Being to be) certainly does have the ability to answer me, as well as all the other 10s of billions of people that have prayed to him. He chooses silence, and then (as I am in his image), so can I choose silence...perhaps, the clay to the potter, but what's the potter without clay?
Again, thanks for understanding the posture I am taking here...and I agree with you and others--a topic about 'how God communicates' with His creatures would be a very interesting discussion.
Craig
Craig,
Excellent response. You made this point,
My point exactly. I stopped doing it, and there was no difference in my life. And God (insofar as I have conjured up His Being to be) certainly does have the ability to answer me, as well as all the other 10s of billions of people that have prayed to him. He chooses silence, and then (as I am in his image), so can I choose silence...perhaps, the clay to the potter, but what's the potter without clay?
I was silent with God for about 3-years, between about 1996 and 1999. It was not so much a choice to ignore God, but rather I simply lost interest in him. I did not pray, read the Bible or go to any church (except for special ocassions). In fact, I was all but an agnostic - atheist. And, I just did not care anymore. Somehow various things came up ... and I still parroted a religious view ... but otherwise I was quite content to let God do his thing, whomever he/she/it is. I was simply doing my thing.
The problem with preaching - the hope of time: I avoid preaching my views because one person may be ready for a step in life and another person may be far away from any steps, if ever at all. It is not up to me to try and promote my views anymore. But, in telling my experience, I stopped seeking God, and then he seems to find me, and move me when I least expected, and in ways I could not imagine, and he moved into my life. This does not make me a good person, it simply means that the situation was right for some purpose that I have yet to fully understand. But, had he not moved in, I would still have a place ... and I believe that you have a place with God, and that whatever happens it will be between you and him in a way that will be best for you. God deals with each of us for who we are. So, if you choose silence, I am sure God understands and respects that position.
My heart attack story - "Shaking hands with death": I told this story in June 2002 in a crusty and sarcastic manner in which I was most distasteful in my talking to God ... all the while I was dying. I basically told God to do his thing, but I was not going to beg him for anything on my death bed. I was in too much pain to give a damn. I saw my life and accepted that whatever I have done up to that time, it was out of my hands and my record was sealed. Well, my life was saved, and now new things have happened which I can see why God kept me around a little longer. Between 1999 and 2002 I had recognized that I was at best a Christian agnostic. I just struggled in commentary on line between defending Christianity in general and harsh treatment of God and his purposes for humans.
Had I remained in that situation, I do not think that God would have sent me to hell. So, there was no pressure to seek God out anymore. Sometimes I think it is better to sit back and simply wait until God acts ... and when he does, we will know it, and appreciate it is perfect for us on an individual basis. If the JWs could have learned to really wait on God, they would not be making false prophecies, preaching door-to-door, and making all sorts of pushy judgmental pronouncements. They would be far happier not trying to act as God's agents, and simply let God be his own agent. Recently, a Catholic theologian said on cable TV in the Chicago area that Catholics should learn to be silent, and not feel that they always have to be doing something ... but instead, live an example, and let God do the talking. That is so different from what we lived as JWs.
Again, thanks for understanding the posture I am taking here...and I agree with you and others--a topic about 'how God communicates' with His creatures would be a very interesting discussion.
Thanks for your kind, thoughtful, and honest responses.
Jim Whitney
Atheism makes sense to me. Everytime I read the deep heartfelt expressions of belief in God I am shaken by the realization that there is NO hope for humans.
So many good minds can't seem to escape the gravitational pull of their own imaginations.
If you can't find absolute proof of god's existence you settle for ambiguous proof of his existence. If ambiguous proof is unsatisfying you try to explain away the need of proof. Finally, refuge is taken in "faith". Faith is only valued because of convention. It is the surrender of intellect. It is a decision to dissociate intellect from ones soul. Faith is just another word for ignor-ance.
Knowledge is the enemy of "faith". It destroys "faith".
I will take knowledge over faith. Faith is just another part of the dungeon mankind needs to escape.
There is no need for the theist to prove anything. They are in charge of this lousy world. They have to tolerate the insanity of dangerous religions because they are all in the "faith" business.
Terry,
Your description of love seems rather mechanical and devoid of its depth and breadth. What you describe is not love, but some attempt at psychobable that is not relevant to what love is about.
I have found it is essential to actually give definitions when entering a discussion. I have not only defined what Love is, but; I've described the process of arriving at my definition precisely. How else can one engage in debate, discussion or communication with others?
You've used the word "mechanical". Aren't all definitions mechanical? We take something apart and examine what they are made of and we label the parts and describe the mechanism; that is the nature of science and mechanics.
If you only wish to discuss these matters "impressionistically" we are going to be dealing subjectively with art, poetry and metaphor and not much else.
I've examined my post for "Psychobabble" and have been unable to find buzzwords or technical descriptions.
from Wikipedia:Psychobabble is a customarily pejorative term to denote technical jargon that is used outside of its intended purpose in psychology. It implies that the speaker lacks the experience and understanding necessary for proper use of various psychological term(s). Frequent use can expand a clinical word to include less meaningful buzzword meanings. Some psychological buzzwords have come into widespread use in business management training, motivational seminars, self-help and folk psychology. These words may be over-used by lay persons in describing behavioral or emotional difficulties as clinical maladies, when such nomenclature is neither valuable, meaningful, or appropriate.
I think you'll find I am carefully about my language. The reason for this is that I intend to say something tangible which can be objectively responded to on merit. The alternative is to spout generalities without substance.
I suspect you scanned my response and cursorily dismissed it.
How can you say my definition is "not love" without being as careful and definitive in saying what "love is"??
If I'm wrong; I'm wrong for reasons other than you simply disagree.
There is no need for the theist to prove anything. They are in charge of this lousy world. They have to tolerate the insanity of dangerous religions because they are all in the "faith" business.
Humanity has a glitch in its software. People are able to ignore facts. People can refuse to be rational. The first half of human history is a demonstration of varied ideas being explored, asserted and finally crammed down throats for the sake of orthodoxy.
The test of any idea, theory or conjecture is making a prediction that can be observed, measured and weighed against the actual outcome.
Religion hides in the undefined, the amorphous, the future tense and the psychology of subjective emotion. The allure remains because so much is promised like the carrot at the end of the stick and belief moves mankind forward in an asymptote of desire for closure.
Here is my biggest gripe with humanity when it comes to Faith, God, Belief and Religion. Instead of honest discussion, definitions and debate followed by testing, measuring and assessment; instead we get browbeating, societal pressure, shaming and namecalling followed by a putsch, purge and powerplay.
Surely the believer with a superhero on his side can do better than this!
Proplog:
Faith is just another part of the dungeon mankind needs to escape.
Can't live with it, can't live without it
Jim:
I'm not arguing with you. I just keep hoping for something extraordinary. Atheists would love to see their parents again. Atheists would like to have the tears wiped from their eyes. Atheists would like to have a conversation with God.
Hi Proplog,
I'm not arguing with you.
I know you are not arguing.
I just keep hoping for something extraordinary.
Jesus said that we would not get anything more than the sign of Jonah, which was referring to his own resurrection. He recognized that future generations would not get to see that sign and commended those that believe and yet did not see. I think the porblem we had a JWs is that we were fixated or even in some cases addicted to the extrodinary, new light, the next intriguing spiritual claim. Whereas as plain-jane Christians are content with what they already have.
Atheists would love to see their parents again. Atheists would like to have the tears wiped from their eyes. Atheists would like to have a conversation with God.
I understand what you mean ... but if you think about it, a true atheist should not long for these things, as they do not and will not exist. The only tears ever wiped will be what humans can do for themselves with a kleenex. There will never be any conversation with any god, because no god exist. Why long for something that does not nor cannot exist. Live for the here and now only. Life is merely what we see. Love is merely a commodity that is used to buy what we want for ourselves (at least according to how I read what Terry says).
As I shows above from the movie staring Jody Foster, I cannot expect others to accept what I have experienced, since I cannot prove it. But, I cannot deny the experience and what I know to be real. God is in my life to stay.
Jim Whitney
Jim:
You keep bringing up the Jodie Foster movie. I can understand that. My family and about 8 others in my neighborhood had a UFO experience. I have always been skeptical of UFO's. But even though around 12 people witnessed the particular UFO event it is useless information to those who didn't experience it. It means nothing.
I would think God should be able to do better than a UFO experience.
