by Terry 171 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Lorentz, Michelson and Morley would also disagree with you. "Measurement" can only be done within the constraints of predetermined parameters, as the results of these scientists' experiments proved.
To properly understand how accurate science is when it measures phenomena you only have to look at the success of the space program. That is pretty darn accurate.
That led me to project: "Why would these emminently intelligent scientists bother themselves with exploring the universe with tools that they themselves knew were deficient?" My solution was: "Because those were the only tools they had." And the fact that their religious and spiritual perspectives played such a large role in their opinions, and how they interpreted their data, led me to think that maybe the "two worlds" aren't so far apart as I once thought they were.
Science leads to success. Science doesn't give us absolute accuracy because absolute accuracy is not even useful!
For example...we can compute PI to as many decimal places as you want to go, but, the actual pinpoint accuracy exceeds the girth of the known universe. How accurate you need to be is entirely dependant on what you are trying to accomplish.
Sending human beings to the moon and getting them back while on moving spheres orbiting the sun is a strong demonstration of how much success and how much accuracy science has at its disposal.
What you are describing in your self-imposed "Greyness" is the fallout from having once been absolutely certain and having lost that.
Absolutes are really quite impractical!!
If you particpated in Christmas as a child (from what I understand you were not raised as a JW) did you honestly feel deceived as a child because you were led to believe in Santa?
Has it had a lasting impact on your ability to trust?
I cant answer these questions myself because I was raised as a JW and as such never experienced Santa.
I have talked with my husband about this subject and he describes Christmas and the white lie that Santa was coming or had been as a wonderful time and experience. He doesnt believe in Santa now and has a fantastic relationship with his dad, and also had with his mother when she was alive. It hasnt impacted on his ability to be reasoning and logical and he does not have an underlying distrust of things
I was bitterly disappointed because I was a bright and sensitive child who kept asking a million questions about the contradictions in what I was being told. For every question there was a kind of impromptu answer than only raised more questions. I suddenly realized what the game was!! Truth had no place in my relationship with my parents!! They were determined to fool me "for my own good" and did not trust me to have access to what was really going on. I still resent their high-handedness.
Not everybody demands the facts or cares when they are deceived. I think it is about the worst thing you can do to somebody whom you love and who trusts you.
We all have a right to reality. When you lie you steal reality from others.
As what is certainly an epilogue here I wish to say the following.
There is no reason for misunderstanding in regard to why people are motivated by an emotional attachment to the supernatural. (i.e. God)
If you look at it in a microcosm you can easily see what I mean.
When two animals meet they sniff each other out. They determine (rather efficiently) all the important details. The most important information is who is Top Dog. Why?
Because the strongest and most able of the two is going to win any fight. So, why fight? Better to drop the contest, step away from the challenge if you are not Top Dog and let the big dog be the boss.
We all do this automatically on an intellectual playing field as well. We quickly yield to the GREATER. No need to re-invent the wheel. Let the biggest, brightest, smartest, strongest and most powerful RUN THE SHOW. Step down, step back and do as you are told or you'll get chewed on.
From the time we are children we learn to tell the bully from the nerd. Nobody wants to lose a fight or be made to look weak and ineffectual. We yield to the stronger.
You can't win a fight with your mom and dad and you sure can't defeat the school bully.
Meaning what? Meaning GOD is the Top Dog. There is no doubt allowed about that. We are indoctrinated successfully with that exclusively when we are too young to challenge the information.
We must get down on our knees before God and ASK POLITELY for what we can't provide for ourselves. We are weak and HE is strong.
God rewards and God punishes!
We see people suffer and die. How do we get out of this world alive? Only by getting down on our knees and humbling our tiny self before the awesome majesty of Top Dog and begging, pleading and making a lot of concessions can we....maaaaaaybeeeee survive and get a nice reward for our groveling.
Not so easy as that, however.
We never really bump into God. Not really. We bump into hard times. We fail when we are on top. We fail when we are smart. We even fail when we succeed at something. Life slaps the courage and confidence out of us. Sooner or later we get down (or find ourselves down) on our knees. May as well look up and start kissing some invisible butt while we are down there.....
We all end up before the throne of God.
That is why the idea that there is..........gasp!.......can we say this out loud?????........There is ANOTHER WAY to get what we need out of life. We can do it ourselves by using our own head, brain, rationality, logic and intellect through a method called SCIENCE.
How daring! How haughty! How self-absorbed and dangerous!!!
Those who have been taught to bow down are amazed and distressed at the arrogance of Science and they hurl stones and curse those who dare.
SCIENCE is not GOD. Many wish it was.
Science is merely the best way mankind has of getting important information that makes life more liveable at above subsistance level.
Our lifespan can perhaps be longer because of Science.
Our failing organs can perhaps be replaced by Science.
Our depression can be avoided perhaps by Science.
Or, our planet can be blown to bits by Science.
The power and the opportunity is always there. But, it is never ever God who makes it happen. It is man. MAN is the motor that moves the world for good or ill.
This TOPIC was designed to demonstrate how ingrained our automatic reactions are to the very notion that God as TOP DOG is merely an invisible totem and is powerless except in our imagination.
Think about it. That is where it all starts....inside our widdle head!!
Earlier today I posted this on the thread asking if we have to choose to choose between religion and science. I think I should have posted it here as they have all gone to church. So here goes:
There has been much debate on this subject lately and my interest in the subject has flushed me out of hiding.
It is true that religion has from the earliest times attempted to explain phenomena in our world. Many activities that were attributed to various gods are now known to have natural and explainable causes. As we have grown in knowledge the explanations provided by religion have been found wanting. Science seeks the same answers but uses logic and close examination as the tool of its trade.
I think the cross road of whether we are applying religion or science to a situation is this:
Are we seeking to understand what is happening so that we can be aware and then act on the knowledge we uncover to gain understanding? Or are we looking to some kind of invisible intelligence to step in and act on our behalf while we remain none the wiser than we were before?
James Thomas often talks of an ultimate reality that stands apart from religion and science and simply is all that is. It is the awareness that exists outside of both religion and science.
Religion goes further, it tells us that there is a personal invisible being who has emotions like ours. If implored, worshiped or appeased enough this benevolent power will intercede on our behalf. On the other hand science does not expect such an intervention.
It is because of this fundamental difference that religion stands in the way of the progress that science tries to make. Scientists are often accused of trying to play God when they are simply seeking much needed answers.
It comes down to this:
Are we children who should look to our heavenly Father to bail us out or are we adults who are fully responsible for the world we live in and its survival?
trevor
Terry said
What distinguishes Religion from Science is MEASUREMENT
True that! The fact is that no one argues facts in the Scientific world, but expert theologions consistently argue about inconsistent theories found in their own dogma; theories in which it is impossible to measure! It is a subjective process at best.
I also want to point out something: Being an athiest doesn't mean one is scientific in the least. Athiesm isn't even a movement with it's own theology, if you will. Simply put, an athiest is one who (for reasons involving facts and evidence) is a person who doesn't believe in god. We don't need to identify ourselves as a "non-astrologer" or "non-alchemist". To quote Sam Harris (again)
Atheism is nothing more then the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified belief.
As a few of these threads have demonstrated, athiests ask, "Please present evidence for your beliefs and faith." The answer receieved is "My faith is a private matter, and you aren't allowed to ask. I can't explain everything I believe, but I am comfortable in that I believe god exists and loves me." Of couse, it is private and harmless until is manifests itself in Bush's belief that Jesus wants the USA to invade Iraq, that abortion, gay rights, or a vaccine for HPV given to young girls all equals a destruction of our society that was based on Judeo-Christian values. All this is is an infliction of faith based beliefs. The source for these beliefs are not questioned? Why? Someone has private faith, they then inflict their beliefs politically. That is dangerous if you are at the receiving end.
Of course, when Science points out such things as homosexuality being genetic, or that genes and cells do evolve, faith based politicians again show up and say that we must fight these proven facts because they go against traditional ways of thinking. Rarely is it argued based on evidence, only that it goes against what we always used to believe. I am not saying that religion is losing; since 2001, they have been winning in the USA, and the evidence is their for all to see and intepret.
As I personally explore my beliefs through education, I am taking my time, but not dragging my feet, in trying to learn what facts exist, and whether the rest is postulation (d. to assume without proof, or as self-evident; take for granted) That is why I asked what I did about the dangers of faith. To me, it is self evident that if you or I do not truly know through education and facts why we believe what we do, it is dangerous. The moral claims of religions throughout the world, and the good works done in the name of god in no way can wash the blood and suffering done and caused by religions through the milleniums.
James Thomas often talks of an ultimate reality that stands apart from religion and science and simply is all that is. It is the awareness that exists outside of both religion and science.
For there to be existence there must be identity. Without identity (what "it" is and how it differs from everything else) there can be now awareness.
To speak of awareness is to speak of the recognition of identity. Without recognizing the identity there is no awareness.
It is a corollary.
The above box mentions "ultimate reality".
In what way is this reality existing in some ultimate way? How do we identify it? If we can't, it is an assertion without a basis and we cannot be aware of it beyond wanting it to exist.
What IS....is. The totality of what IS constitutes nature (things as they really are).
That is all there is: what exists. Beyond what actually exists we have what does NOT EXIST. This is what we can imagine.
When we stray outside of nature we invent. The invention of SUPERnature (above and beyond existence) is imaginitive and thrilling and mysterious and .....without identity in the actually existing universe in which we live.
When we confuse what our mind can do when it creates an imaginative and speculative thought with reality itself (and then, call it ULTIMATE) we fool ourselves.
Why fool ourselves?
What is the self if we cannot identify it?
I've seen many persons who don't live who they are. They live who they THINK they are. You can call them delusional. You can call them wannabees. You can call them any name you like, but, you can recognize them as being in a world interior which doesn't connect with what they REALLY are.
You see these people auditioning for American Idol. They firmly believe they have incredibly power and ability to sing and dance and entertain--but, they stink!
Is this ULTIMATE reality or is it a mental aberration?
I'm not talking about James Thomas, by the way. I'm talking about the way it is so easy to use words AS THOUGH they are connected to meaning when they merely tickle the ear with delightful promise unfulfilled.
We exist.
See me, feel me, smell me, touch me, hear me.
If we declare: I am something much much more than you can see, feel, smell, touch and hear---------how do we prove it? It is all inside our own concocted imagination.
Now, go a step farther.
If we say, I know somebody who is invisible who is much much more than reality itself and this someone is God. God is BEYOND reality. God is ULTIMATE reality. What have we really done? Have we done anything more than assert an intangible wish into faux-beingness?
SELF is the total of what we actually are. But, from inside, we can think whatever we desire about that SELF and be dead wrong while smiling. We can be content and happy and deliriously convinced we are much much more.
Usually delusionals seek the company of persons who will agree with them! It only takes one. Then you have a master and a disciple.
I can urinate Kool-Aid.
Oh really? Gimme some!!
Yum yum.
It has happened all through history.
My topic here is really about the world we DO live in and how it has been impacted by REAL progress. Genuine progress consists of actually existing benefits.
Assert whatever.....else----you want.......
I'll take the REAL benefits of science over the Nirvana, Elysium Fields, Valhalla and Ultimate Bliss of the imagination.
p.s. I'm not being churlish with anybody. I'm just calmly answering. Somebody wrote me and told me I sound angry. Not a bit of it. I'm a grinning old fella with wicked sense of humor and passion for ideas. That's all.
Terry
Most of your argument are about what's best for everybody (from YOUR perspective) but then your insistence to not taking everybodies arguments and consideration in the matter of spiritually (through a religion if they want to / Their right) shows that you ONLY want to win ... (is that a survival need? no it's a very self oriented spiritual need - it's also a right but since it is self oriented it doesn't have to touche everybody but those who also want to win)
People do think (for themself for most) and since there is no real new arguement - their opinion is already made) you can add whatever you want (unless it is a new argument) it's only nitpicking - and then why reading? That's when we might miss the real argument sunk in the whole (take care)
And just as a reminder do not confuse religion and spirituality. I invite you to just forget about religion for a while and open your Spirituality and you might realise that it's enough to be clear (don't worry on this matter you'll always fine people on your very particular side), and YOU WILL SURVIVE WITHOUT WINING every time (you won't loose your identity in being open spiritually and you just need to be more open to other people PERCEPTION) but this is again about a personnal choice. I'm not going to force it on you.
If a person stops his thoughts, what happens?
S
Edit : Sorry wanted to add something but thought it was not needed just after (and before I type anything to put a blank line before typing I've pushed the "enter" key it this have been post blank ...
