The New World Translation is a Mess

by Amazing 144 Replies latest jw friends

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Leo:

    This theological discussion is going far afield from the NWT, by the way.....

    I know, but the NWT is boring, with folks running out of things to say about it after a couple of pages. Besides, I'm having fun airing a few heretical ideas for the sake of discussion. It seems in common with the NWT-mess theme

    I have thought of the amoeba situation as well, although this scenario is contrary to the "distinction without division" concept....

    It does and it doesn't, if you think of it from a Taoist perspective (Yin/Yang) rather than a truly biological one. But then we get back to dualisms, and slide towards Gnosticism again

    It still wouldn't explain there being three, unless you consider either of the following two options:

    1. A divides to A+B; A+B "copulate" bringing forth C
    2. A Divides to A+B; A+B divides to A+B+C+D; D rebels

    Where:A = Abba
    B = Sophia
    C = Christ
    D = Devil

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Well, if I may jump in with some of my fellow "obscure ones," LOL...

    Odd as it may seem, I have no problem, conceptually and mathematically, in reconciling the "finity/infinity" of the Trinity. Niels Abel (a Norwegian mathematical genius who died in his 20s [1802-1829]) developed a considerable body hyper-infinite mathematics (which I do not presume to fully understand, though, pathetically, I do actually understand a few of his concepts LOL), which led to, indirectly (and Euler added a few ideas of his own), Maxwell's equations, upon which, ultimately, Einstein developed his theories.

    However, in the layman's terms that I can best relate, there was a theologian who once stated it this way: "Christ was the manifestation of an Infinite God temporarily crossing into the Finiteness of our Universe." Thus Abel's pertinence to this possibility: Christ was an inevitable 'subgrouping' of the Infinite, a subgrouping that could not have happened (insofar as we would perceive it) any other way (mathematically speaking). Both the same "Being," and yet necessarily manifested in a different way.

    My head hurts! LOL

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Nark,

    Jim,

    One humanity, many persons, not a poly-humanity. One God, three persons, not a polytheism, or tritheism,or poly-divinity. What part of the comparison is not clear?

    It is perfectly clear... as a definition of tritheism, i.e. a subcategory of polytheism. Three individuals of man-kind are three men (or women), three individuals of the horse-kind are three horses, three individuals of the unicorn-kind are three unicorns, three individuals of the god-kind are... three gods.

    If you treat 'god" as a title, then you are correct. There is only one humanity, so when you have more human, there is still only one humanity, not multiple humanities. One Divinity, with three members, each fully divine, does not become three divinities (gods).

    On a similar note: To non-trinitarians (like JWs) the Trinity conflicts with math logic. I recall in the old Trinity booklet (The Word - Who is He according to John), the Society said that 1 + 1 + 1 = 3. To Trinitarians who are equally clever, the Trinity is mathematically solved by saying that 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Amen!

    Jim Whitney

  • RAF
    RAF

    Amazing = 1 x 1 x 1 = 1. Amen!

    Ok at this point I agree with this algebric solution - we do evolve (and we can only evolve) at the primal essence state (not more not less - since we are related to him)... that's why the Christ is God = Maturity (sorry I'm on fire ... LOL) ... and we are not there yet ... we just have a clue means that at this stage we are only on the 1x1 ... we just miss the last x1 ... to get there

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Nothing personal, Jim, but to be perfectly candid; I despise that trite mathematical formula for Trinitarianism. I literally cringe every time it is held aloft triumphantly as the ultimate counter to the anti-trinitarian contention. The whole purpose of multiplication tables is that you are dealing with several of something.

    If it really must be dealt with in mathematical terms, surely "1 infinity" + "1 infinity" + "1 infinity" = "1 infinity" is far more appropriate? To be honest I even baulk as I type that...

  • RAF
    RAF

    Sorry I'm not talking for Jim here Ross but what if we take it on an other perspective? Think about it please ...

    Essence + Evolution + Maturity might be what it is exactly? what do you think?

  • RAF
    RAF

    errrr ... Sorry Ross

    I mean Essence x Evolution x Maturity

    but I would use the algebric expression which in French is "puissance" maybe ("power" in English) as levels of evolution ...

    ok so now what do you think about it?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Jim

    There is only one humanity, so when you have more human, there is still only one humanity, not multiple humanities. One Divinity, with three members, each fully divine, does not become three divinities (gods).

    Not at all. In most polytheisms the many gods share one divinity (divine kind or status, as opposed to mortals), too. Which is what their genealogies point to -- gods and goddesses uniting and giving birth to other gods, within the same "family".

    Ross,

    I wonder if there isn't some latitude in considering that rather than the three individuals being examples of a species, they are deemed the entirety of the co-existant race.

    And what would that change? Wouldn't they be just a finite number of "examples"?

    The only way imo to avoid tritheism is to construe hypostaseis and personae not as mere samples but as non-interchangeable positions in a definite structure. Three "modes of being," as Barth puts it, insisting on being against modalism (which implies modes of operation or appearance).

    As another sidebar, I have also given consideration to whether a creator needs to be more complex than His progeny. Following that thought: when an amoeba splits, which part is the parent and which part the child?

    I highlighted the words "creator" and "progeny" because they belong to two distinct metaphors, which the Gnostic crisis of the 2nd century and subsequent theology, both orthodox and heretic, have dramatically set against each other. Creator / creature or Father / progeny, that has become the main shibboleth of Christian theology... from this perspective, where does the notion of creation fit in your diagram:

    1. A divides to A+B; A+B "copulate" bringing forth C
    2. A Divides to A+B; A+B divides to A+B+C+D; D rebels

    ? Just testing how far you trust your Gnostic leanings

    Craig,

    In classical theology the finite/infinite issue does not belong to the doctrine of Trinity per se (or ontological Trinity, dealing with the eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit), but to the accompanying doctrine of hypostatic union of "God the Son" and the man Jesus, hence of the uncreated and the created, which actually calls for another, termed "economical," Trinity. Which was a logical necessity inasmuch as Gnosticism was rejected, but remains also the less satisfying aspect of orthodoxy imo. Perhaps the essential originality of Karl Barth's theology was to deny this distinction, building up a speculative anti-Gnosticism (mankind in God, the finite in the infinite rather than the opposite).

    The core of the Trinity doctrine, to me, stands in the very simple formula: God above us, with us, within us.

  • greendawn
    greendawn

    Predictably this became another Trinitarian argument but to change things more towards the thread topic I will mention one of my favourite NWT errors. It concerns 1 Thessalonians 4:17 where the NWT says:

    16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.

    It talks about the rapture of the saints the dead saints will be resurrected and the living saints will be taken up together with them!!! According to the dubs this resurrection occured in 1918 yet not one living JW saint from their greatest wit Rutherford and down, was snatched up to heaven - unfortunately they remained here and subsequently caused a lot of hardship LOL.

    In the original Greek in fact it states "ama syn aytois" which means "at the same time together with them" (ama = at the same time, simultaneously) which completely destroys the concept of a resurrection in 1918. To be honest other English translations made the same error or perhaps they thought that the word ama was unnecessary since it was clearly implied by "together with them".

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Interesting observation, greendawn. It may be attractive to posit a theological Tendenz (i.e. the pre-existing belief that some of the 144,000 were invisibly resurrected in 1918) in the manner in which hama is handled in the NWT, but it is also noteworthy that the ASV (the main version used by the Society before the completion of the NWT, published by the WTS from 1944 to 1963) renders it in a similar fashion, so it looks like the NWT followed suit (but cf. the Emphatic Diaglott used even earlier, which renders hama as "at the same time"). This raises an interesting question. How much of the NWT is a fresh translation, or how much does it follow the translation choices made in the ASV? Was there an influence of the ASV on the NWT? Was Freddy Franz, versed as he was in the ASV in addition to the Greek NT, predisposed to read the Greek in a way that favored ASV readings?

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