The New World Translation is a Mess

by Amazing 144 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Nark and Onscruse:

    Nark:

    The translation of John 1:1, imo, cannot be settled by syntax alone. It cannot be validly discussed apart from the question of what is exactly meant by "theos" in the Fourth Gospel in general and the Prologue in particular. If we don't step out of the anachronistic 4th-century dichotomy -- either Arius or Athanasius -- to look into the more fluid notion of the divine in proto-Gnostic circles of the late first or early second centuries, we simply cannot get it.

    I have no intention of settling anything on John 1:1. This post was and is about what numerous well known scholars in Greek have to say about the topic and in particular John 1:1. As I stated, I selected this verse because I can find the most scholarly comments regarding it. Look at the opening number of comments of scholars. The first one is not a Christian and not a Trinitarian, and even he cannot agree with the "a god" used in the NWT.

    As for getting our of a box, I am not in one. The scriptures are not abundantly clear on God's exact nature ... though they do lend themselves to trinitarian thinking, especially when one begins to read what the defenders of the faith wrote from the early second century onward. The Trinity itself was defined in great detail by the year 160, long before the Council of Nicaea in 325. Its roots and concepts were taught bace to the late first century or early second century by disciples of the Apostles.

    What is meant by Theos? It would mean what the language of Koine' Greek meant when it was written ... and when reading the writings of the early Christians, one comes to understand that it means the same thing to Christians today. At least I have yet to find anything that reveals another meaning over a covered period of 200 years that I read of early Christian writings.

    There are certainly thousands of debatable renderings in the NWT, as in any other version. Undisputable falsifications, otoh, are rare. The most obvious case to me is not John 1:1 but the introduction of "Jehovah" into the NT. That makes one case or hundreds, depending on how you count.

    Undisputable falsifications ... well, this is going to be interesting. I doubt that any NWT committee member would ever admit to making a knowing falsification. But then they are all dead that I know. The next generation of NWT revisionists will only claim to build on the earlier work. So they will admit no deliberate falsifications. So, what we have left is secondary evidence, that is, by examination of the NWT, we can find clear wording patterns that strongly suggest deliberate rewording to obscure and confuse the original meaning of the text.

    Example: 1 Timothy 4:1: The KJV rendering: "the Spirit expressly says" which shows that a person is speaking something clear from his own will. An examination of any good concordance, even Strong's, shows that this rendering is accurate. The NWT rendering: "inspired utterances says" which critically alters the text. Instead of a person speaking, now we have some unidentified "utterance" giving some message to or though some one or something. It is a butcher job to hide the possibility of the verse leading the Jws to think that the Holy Spirit is a person. It has to be deliberate, but since the NWT committee men are all dead that I know of, then they cannot be questioned to see if they will admit deliberate intention. If you check other translations, you will find that they agree with the KJV in the way the verse reads, even though they may use other language.

    The NWT says: " However, the inspired utterance says ... "

    The NIV: "The Spirit clearly says ...",

    Young's Literal Translation: "And the Spirit expressly speaketh, ..."

    Wicliffe New Testament: "But the Spirit saith openly, ..."

    Darby's Translation: " But the Spirit speaks expressly, ..."

    I have not found any that agree with the NWT. I have reviewed many, but the above are just examples. If there is no deliberate intention to obfuscate the text, then why not simply render the verse as it is written. The Greek word pneuma was used, and there is no provision in say, Strong's concordance to suggest otherwise.

    Onscruse:

    I don't do e-mail, or any of the messaging services (burned out on that a long time ago, when I was a mod), but I know that anyone who has the will can find out my cell-phone #, etc, anyway...so here it is: 503-317-2972.

    I was not looking to get into a lengthy e-mail exchange, I simply thought that you may want to release your number privately. Anyway, I will call you, and set up a time to visit if we can. The first few days will be spent sending off my son-in-law to Iraq, then the rest with the family.

    Thus, as Narkissos mentions, this matter of translation cannot be definitively decided merely on the basis of grammar.

    I never claimed anything about grammar controlling translation. But, the scholars, including a non-Christian, non-Trinitarian agrees with Mantey and others, and does not aupport the NWT. Still, your quote of Mantey's manual does not address or support for the NWT rendering. It discusses the definite article, but does not say that is should be used at John 1:1.

    And of course you do not have to contact any scholar, as you say, simply because you don't care. My objective is to say that I have no intention of debating John 1:1, and point you to scholars if you wish to debate ... but then, you do respond here with some measure of concern. My objective is not to debate Greek ... my objective was, and is, to show what many scholars say. An above poster calls one scholar a "hack" which is ad hominem, because it it irrelevant to the topic ... and he picks one scholar ... but ignores the strength of the rest of the scholars who also disagree with the NWT.

    Thanks for your number,

    Jim Whitney

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    Just to hear another person's opinion, has anyone here ever read Jason BeDuhn's book on the subject? I am afraid I still haven't read it, not having seen it in my university library and not having spent the money to purchase it. I am interested to hear of his take on the subject, although I was not impressed by his simplistic explanation of John 1:1 on an internet blog or messageboard I saw once.

    Here are the things that make the NWT stink imho:

    1) The unjustified and arbitrary insertion of "Jehovah" in the NT, and the seemingly amateurish citation of the "J" versions (which are not witnesses to an underlying text) in the critical apparatus.

    2) The inaccurate and/or hyper-literal rendering of some words (often through an etymological fallacy, preferring etymology over usage) in ways that are theologically convenient for the Society, e.g. kolasin "punishment" as "cutting-off", ginóskó"know" as "take in knowledge", pisteuó "believe, trust" as "exercise faith", en "in" as "in union with", pneuma "spirit" as "gift of the spirit", "inspired expression", "inspired utterance", etc.

    3) and most of all, the dreadful English which makes it very difficult for the reader to follow the train of thought of the author.

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    Hello Leo! Recuperated from your experiences in the armpit of hell (Texas) have ye? LOL

    1) The unjustified and arbitrary insertion of "Jehovah" in the NT, and the seemingly amateurish citation of the "J" versions (which are not witnesses to an underlying text) in the critical apparatus.

    Yes, those are things which I, being the good little JW true believer, glossed past and accepted as perfectly reasonable "adjustments" to the scared text. However, those are, from the beginning, clearly delineated in the NWT as being just what they are: insertions, not translations.

    2) The inaccurate and/or hyper-literal rendering of some words (often through an etymological fallacy, preferring etymology over usage) in ways that are theologically convenient for the Society, e.g. kolasin "punishment" as "cutting-off", ginóskó"know" as "take in knowledge", pisteuó "believe, trust" as "exercise faith", en "in" as "in union with", pneuma "spirit" as "gift of the spirit", "inspired expression", "inspired utterance", etc.

    All these words you mention have variable and diffuse meanings, both in the "literal" definition and in characteristic usage. For example, the phrase "ek tou kosmou" can be taken, quite justifiably, as "not from this world" or "not a part of this world." It depends on how one wants to interpret the sense of the genitive construct (as partitive, or conjunctive). Obviously, these two interpretations put quite a different slant on how a Christian "sees" his position in this world: Catholics take (more or less) the first sense, and JWs take (very enthusiastically) the second sense.

    3) and most of all, the dreadful English which makes it very difficult for the reader to follow the train of thought of the author.

    I like to walk on stilts! LOL

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Leolaia,

    Excellent points ... and we can add to this the little convenience tool the Society uses to shape what the reader reads, such as at at Colossians 1:16 -17:

    16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, ..." - New World Translation

    The insertion of [other] into the text changes the reading entirely to force the reader to conclude that Jesus is a secondary created being. They could not find a clean easy textual wording to try and revise this verse, so they simply used their little [other] tool.

    I maintain that the NWT is a mess.

    Jim Whitney

  • Mad
    Mad

    hahahahahahaha! I'm convinced!

    Maybe you should ask them about the "shining example" of all the other translations that play musical chairs with words pertaining to "soul", "hell",and Spirit. Why so many contain so many verses biblical scholars KNOW were added later on, why many use words you will not understand without whipping out dictionaries, why so many verses are DELIBERATELY twisted to support false, traditional dogma, and why the Biggest Mistake of ALL- God's Name, that Christ said to honor, is REPLACED by a generic title "LORD" almost 7,000 times!

    For decades I have tried to find fault with the NWT- and simply end up being awed at it's accuracy! Those were untrustworthy references. This is a common breakdown of the word "God" in John 1:1-

    The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

    Strong's Number: 2316 Browse Lexicon
    Original WordWord Origin
    qeov?/FONT>of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with (3588)) the supreme Divinity
    Transliterated WordTDNT Entry
    Theos3:65,322
    Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech
    theh'-os Noun Masculine
    Definition
    1. a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
    2. the Godhead, trinity
      1. God the Father, the first person in the trinity
      2. Christ, the second person of the trinity
      3. Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
      4. spoken of the only and true God
        1. refers to the things of God
        2. his counsels, interests, things due to him
        3. whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
          1. God's representative or viceregent
            1. of magistrates and judges

            Notice that the Greek word is used for those OTHER definitons- INCLUDING 4a- God's Representative- which, I'm sure even YOU won't argue with ( I hope!), Jesus was!

            Altho not in Greek- Jehovah told Moses that He was "making him a god" (Elohim- BUT THEY PUT AN "A" HERE, AS WE DID AT JOHN 1:1- AND FOR THE SAME REASON! They at least knew MOSES wasn't part of the ridiculous 'Trinity'!

            So continue reading the KJV, and remain in confusion, as you dwell "in the bowels" !

            Mad

          2. onacruse
            onacruse

            Jim:

            The scriptures are not abundantly clear on God's exact nature ... though they do lend themselves to trinitarian thinking, especially when one begins to read what the defenders of the faith wrote from the early second century onward. The Trinity itself was defined in great detail by the year 160, long before the Council of Nicaea in 325. Its roots and concepts were taught bace to the late first century or early second century by disciples of the Apostles.

            Ya know, that was one of the big eye-openers for me, when I started reading some of the "early fathers," having in the back of my mind, of course, the pablum that I'd been handed by the WTS, especially in the Trinity brochure. I was asked to handle a return visit with a fellow who had attended Multnomah Bible School, and he said a lot of stuff about the "early fathers" that I just couldn't hear---meaning, of course, that I heard, but didn't listen. Then, when I started studying Latin, I got into those same "father's" writings, and lo and behold, I read one statement after another after another that just didn't jive with what I'd been told was the "true early Christian history" (WTS version). I remember telling my Mom about that, that the Trinity brochure was a bunch of lies, and she just sorta passed it off, like "so who cares?...Jesus is still not God." sheesh

          3. Terry
            Terry

            Not that anybody asked me, but; I think we are reinventing a wheel that came off the wagon a long time back.

            Ask a broader question here and see if the New World Translation's "accuracy" is a moot point.

            What is the definitive touchstone to veracity in a bible translation in the first place?

            What is the norm?

            The NORM is a moving target and not a fixed point.

            From the very invention of Christianity (speaking historically and not theologically) it was the clash of consensus in one geographic area versus another consensus in another geographic area that shaped theology.

            Christianity and Judaism were constantly reshaping as local social changes were fomenting. Religion in any form is a kind of filter that allows a people (or person) to make sense of what has happened, what is happening and what will happen in a manner that allows them a measure of control over the outcome. (Illusory as this premise might be.)

            The resort to a BOOK to settle these arguments, opinions and strategies was a LAST RESORT as most apologia are.

            So, what?

            So, any translation at any point in history has more to do with the necessity of settling issues of orthodoxy after the fact of already having a fixed opinion which must be proved at all costs (even the cost of doctoring your translation.)

            Jehovah's Witness bibles perform the same service that all bible translations provided (the political and theological determinations) in the past all through history: to wit: Creating a means of winning the argument by pretending God is backing you up.

            There is no FIXED ABSOLUTE ORIGINAL VERSION of the Bible. There are no copies of a fixed and absolute version of the bible. There are only doctored versions all along the pathways of history. These doctored versions are as accurate and as bogus as any version before or after. How can we say that? Because, historically religion is about opinion.

            Where the opinion of a religion is most dishonest is when it pretends the source of its opinion came accurately and directly from a Supreme Being who is backing them up from the invisible realm of eternity.

            A book of scripture is a kind of magic trick which relies on misdirection. It says, "look here and not at the card up my sleeve."

            It is the ultimate con game at worst and the most tragic self-delusion at best.

            There is no THERE there.

            Christianity is almost guilty of worshipping the bible when it claims inerrancy. The worst cults adhere to inerrancy for a reason: absolute control over orthodoxy and power accrues to the interpreter of said orthodoxy.

          4. onacruse
            onacruse

            LOL...this is too much fun!

            Jim, you mentioning the NWT interpolation of "other" is a much better example of what this thread is about...especially when one observes that, in the earlier versions of the NWT, these "interpolations" were at least [bracketed]...while, as I recall, they slowly became incorporated into the text without those identifying brackets.

            So, ya'll just tell me when you want me to shut up, eh? roflmao

          5. El Kabong
            El Kabong

            I seem to remember that the Society published another translation of the Bible. I think it was called "The Bible in Living English", or something like that. It had to be in the early to mid 1970's. It was never really used that much, if at all, but I remember having one in the house as a kid. Why would the Society publish another translation other than the NWT?

          6. poppers
            poppers

            When all is said and done it's nothing but different interpretations and how those interpretations are applied, including NWT. The bible is a bunch of words, just ideas. Claiming "this and that" by different "scholars" proves nothing - they are just words. Instead of relying on words/ideas to take you to some future "paradise" look for the fullness of life where it actually exists, in that which the words arise. And that can only happen right now - discover that, then any version of the bible becomes superfluous.

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