by prophecor 53 Replies latest jw friends
I don't have my Watchtower CD handy but I believe a recent publication mentioned that the prophesy of the King of the North and King of the South has already been fulfilled.
It said that the King of the North was Ulysses S. Grant and the King of the South was Robert E. Lee.
Rub a Dub
Who wrote all this stuff in Daniel in the first place? Find the answer to that question and go from there. Three books that are very helpful are: Who Wrote The Bible? Richard Elliott Friedman, The Bible Unearthed, Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, Misquoting Jesus, Bart D. Ehrman.
Much food for thought, gives one pause. We all believe what we believe, I don't believe that the Bible is inspired of God, so these history books such as Daniel are just that, history, and have no impact on the future history of mankind. King of the North, King of the South historically have switched identities over the years. Warfare will always be with us and looking into the Bible for answers will never fully satisfy us.
Blueblades
If one really followed what the text itself says, one would never go so far afield in reaching for latter day "fulfillments".
Most religions, and not just the WTS, have this problem. I believe the term the WTS uses is "parallel fulfillment." Even if the biblical prophecy was intended for a specific time period in the past and was already fulfilled, the WTS always assumes that there will be a "greater fulfillment" which will also be carried out in our day as well. The KofN is a perfect example of this. According to history, this prophecy was already fulfilled. Where does the bible say that it would take place in the future yet once again?
Blue,
Your lack of spirituality is so disturbing and disappointing. Reading garbage like that will only add to your prideful intellegence. Silly apostate!
Anyway, back to important theocratic debate.
NEW LIGHT: THE KON IS CANADA AND THE KOS IS AUSTRALIA - ARMAGEDDON TO BE FOUGHT
IN NEW ZEALAND (LOTS OF SHEEP AND GOATS THERE!)
Who wrote all this stuff in Daniel in the first place? Find the answer to that question and go from there.
This is a question I have been researching for three years now, and I think it is one of the most fascinating questions about the Bible. I am fairly convinced now that the book was written in at least three stages, as its strange literary features (e.g. use of two different languages, embedded chiasms, textual disparities between the LXX and the MT, etc.) indicate. The oldest core appears to have been ch. 4-6 LXX (mid-third century BC), then a variant recension of ch. 4-6 was incorporated in an Aramaic apocalypse consisting of ch. 2-7 (dating to the reign of Antiochus III, probably during the crisis of 200-198 BC), then ch. 7 was expanded in the early years of Antiochus IV's reign (171-168 BC), and finally a Hebrew apocalypse was added in ch. 8-12 in the latter part of Antiochus IV's reign (i.e. 168-164 BC), with the addition of ch. 1 to provide an introduction to the book as a whole. The Aramaic and Hebrew apocalypses share much in common with the parallel Animal Apocalypse of 1 Enoch (ch. 84-90), which was written roughly at the same time. While they belong to the same apocalyptic movement (which started around c. 200 BC, according to several indicators), they have very different political perspectives. The Hebrew apocalypticist of Daniel was critical of the Maccabean guerilla warriors and took a quietistic stance (i.e. accepting martyrdom and waiting for God's intervention), whereas the author(s) of the Animal Apocalypse regarded Judas Maccabeus as a heroic figure. The Hebrew apocalypticist also reveals himself to have strong priestly and scribal interests and was probably connected with the Hasidim of the second century BC.
Most religions, and not just the WTS, have this problem. I believe the term the WTS uses is "parallel fulfillment." Even if the biblical prophecy was intended for a specific time period in the past and was already fulfilled, the WTS always assumes that there will be a "greater fulfillment" which will also be carried out in our day as well. The KofN is a perfect example of this. According to history, this prophecy was already fulfilled. Where does the bible say that it would take place in the future yet once again?
The reppropriation of OT prophecies for "secondary" or "multiple fulfillments" almost always involves special pleading, but that is even better than what the Society does here, for they even deny the "primary" fulfillment that is plainly expressed. They follow the Seleucid correspondences very closely up to Antiochus III, and then just arbitrarily skip past Antiochus IV so they can attribute everything dealing with him to a long line of figures and nations up to the present day (as if the survey of history in ch. 11 would have skipped past the greatest persecution experienced by the Jews up to that point). Had they included Antiochus IV as one of the parallel fulfillments, at least there would have been an interpretation of Daniel 11:21-35 at some level that makes sense.
" NEW LIGHT: THE KON IS CANADA AND THE KOS IS AUSTRALIA - ARMAGEDDON TO BE FOUGHT
IN NEW ZEALAND (LOTS OF SHEEP AND GOATS THERE!) "
Well, yes, you crazies can come and fight all you like over here but you are NOT to bring your beastly nuclear weapons. O.K.?
?You can get lost in the details of Daniel & Revelation and completely miss its meaning. Daniel
was written to disguise its words from those who doubt its extra-earthly source. If you think
Daniel is just about some vague references to Greek subjugation it is because your real interest is
to discredit the possibility that it really holds the secret to understanding the time of the end. Russia IS the King of the North USA IS the King of the South. Every day the World Press
contains articles that portray the ongoing effort of the King of the South to control Russia. Ignore
it - but there it is right in front of your eyes. Here are just a few from today March 5, 2007 RIA Novosti
March 5, 2007
Russia and the West – polar opposites or two sides of the same coin? MOSCOW. (Ian Pryde for RIA Novosti) It should surprise no one that after awaking from
its hibernation in the 1990s, “the bear” is
refusing to roll over on its stomach and accept
the stationing of anti-ballistic-missile defenses in Eastern Europe. Nezavisimaya Gazeta
March 5, 2007
GLOBAL ANTI-MISSILE SUPERIORITY
US missile defense deployment near our borders is
aimed at devaluing Russia's nuclear deterrent forces
The American missile defense threat
Author: Viktor Yesin, Colonel-General (retired), former Strategic
Missile Forces chief of staff
[Washington's intention to draw Ukraine into building a global
missile defense system fits in with its policy of attaining
indisputable military primacy, and is aimed at devaluing the nuclear
missile deterrents of Russia and China. Defense against rogue states
is only a pretext.] Moskovskiye Novosti
March 5, 2007
Article by Varfolomey Korobushin, Vice President
of the Academy of Military Sciences: "The Nuclear Umbrella Is Our Savior" The strategic weapons of Russia are impeding the
unleashing of a large-scale war. The Americans have stopped concealing the fact
that they consider Russia to be in the category
of probable enemies. Roberts Gates, Secretary of
Defense of the United States, has placed us in
the same category as North Korea, Iran, and
China. He considers those states to be unpredictable (rogue nations) #30
Japan Times
March 5, 2007
Editorial
Russia flexes its muscles Recent statements by Russian officials have taken
an ominous tone. In one speech, President
Vladimir Putin accused the United States of
trying to impose its will on the world, while
other leaders warn that American plans to install
missile defenses in Europe will force Russia to
target the host countries in the event of war.
These comments reflect Moscow's frustration over
what it perceives as U.S. failure to consider its
interests when making policy and a new confidence
about its place in the world. Russia is flexing
its muscles, but it is also worried about a world
order that is dangerously unstructured and prone to conflict. In his Feb. 10 speech to a Munich security
conference, Mr. Putin accused the U.S. of the
"hyper-use of military force" that is "plunging
the world into an abyss of permanent conflicts."
In "the world of one master, one sovereign,"
Washington "has overstepped its national borders,
and in every area." Mr. Putin has repeatedly
expressed concern about the extension of the
North Atlantic Treaty Organization to Russia's
borders. In Munich he warned that deploying
missile defenses in Europe could unleash a new
arms race. At times, he seemed nostalgic for the
certainties of the Cold War and the old
superpower condominium, with its spheres of
influence, its arms control agreements -- and the
unquestioned status it afforded Moscow
I don't think it's about US and russia . could be hugo chavez and the US thus making the US the king of the north eh? If you read the last part of the scenario the king of the north floods the entire middle east , much like what the US is doing now . The only thing that makes sense out of the whole thing is the obvious fact it is talking about the end in Daniel 12 .The WTBTS can't prophesy, thus showing it is not spirit inspired .
ahem.
using my bible-based insight, and after labouring many hours on this deep, deep subject, i have come to the conclusion that the king of the north is none other than
the cookie monster.
BEWARE!! the time of choosing has come upon YOU!
sincerely, your brother,
tetrapod
Heathen:
That's why I like to start with the "end" and work my way backwards frame by frame. The only reason for Daniel & Revelation is to prepare the "chosen" for the tribulation. If you understand that the suffering will be short it is possible to endure.
Who are the "chosen" ? That remains to be seen. The faithful slave that is assigned oversight of the whole earth will not be identified until the court of the Sky Kingdom takes its seat.
At this point in time Russia knows that it has to remove the USA from its comfortable position of dictating to the World. I suspect it will be part of Putin's strategy to remain in power after his second term is up a year from now. I can envision the "disgusting thing" standing where it shouldn't as a nuclear explosion in New York City. It will be blamed on terrorists. Putin will rush to express sympathy to avoid blame. Such a devastating blow will have no return address. But the USA will figure it out.
I am ambivalent about such statements. I don't even know if I believe my intuition. I don't believe in God or the Bible as God's word. I would prefer to be wrong. But, too many things are occurring that are beyond chance.
Parallel accounts of the final earthly struggle in Daniel and Revelation.
1. King of the North is Pushed by the King of the South.
2. Babylon the Great sits on the Wild Beast.
3. Babylon is portrayed as the richest entity on earth - so rich that all those with ships at sea are rich do to her consumption.
4. The Beast appears to die. The Soviet Union died.
5. The Beast revives. Russia has repaid all of its debts. It still has a strong although decaying nuclear force. But the US still tries to control it by riding it.
6. The revived beast appears as a lamb. Russia in the 1990's looked like it was on its way to being a democracy.
7. The beast begins speaking like the dragon. Russia is angry at the USA. Putin has created an authoritarian structure.
8. Putin has paid homage to the Soviet Union and has said that the destruction of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.
9. The final kingdom on earth is described as being fragmented. Russia is in a state of falling apart. Chechnya became an example of what Russia can do with its Iron Fist if any of its national groups thinks they can escape Russian control.
JW's and Born Agains are alike in thinking Babylon the Great is a religious entity. They have felt that way since the reformation painted the Catholic Church with that brush. They are both wrong.
